Haran Vijayananthan: Awareness vs. Activism

We sit down with Haran Vijayananthan, Community Health and Wellness Director at Klinic Community Health Center. Haran shares his experience challenging the Toronto Police Service over their handling of missing persons cases and his current work making healthcare more accessible to marginalized communities right here in Winnipeg.

We're talking:

• Why "awareness" without action falls short in creating real change

• How Haran's work led to concrete reforms in how police handle missing persons cases

• The barriers that prevent people from moving from awareness to activism

• Why understanding intersectionality is crucial for effective human rights work

• Real strategies for engaging with systems to create lasting policy changes

Whether you're wondering how to move beyond social media activism or looking for examples of successful advocacy that creates systemic change, this conversation offers practical insights into making meaningful progress on human rights issues that affect our local community while connecting to larger global movements.

Haran reminds us: "If you're living in 2025, unless you're a young child, you're aware of the behaviors and issues in society. What are you going to do about it?"

Episode Transcript:

Stuart Murray 0:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis Nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 0:19

This is Humans, on Rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray 0:30

human rights is one of those areas where you think about awareness, you think about activism, and you think about are the two intertwined? Do you need one or the other? Particularly when you look at issues through a human rights lens. And today's guest is Haran Vijayananthan, and he is the Community Health and Wellness director at clinic Community Health Center. And we're going to talk a little bit about awareness and activism. Haran, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you for having me. Can you introduce yourself and maybe explain a little bit about what you're doing, for

Haran Vijayananthan 1:03

sure. So my name is Haran vijana vijanathan, as you had said, and I'm a 47 year old Sri Lankan Tamil gay man who grew up in Winnipeg, you know, in the 80s, and then, you know, headed off to Toronto. And I think that's sort of where my human rights sort of work started in Toronto, where I was working, in the HIV sector, as well as the LGBTQ sector, being exposed to a lot of human rights violations, especially in the for those folks who are living with HIV. But then when you add the element of race and class and citizenship into the mix, you know, you see the intersectional issues that occur for many individuals accessing basic health care needs, which is a human right, you know, a basic human right for everybody here in this country. And then I finished my career as the executive director of the Alliance for South Asian AIDS prevention there, you know, where I really took it to the hilt, where I challenged the Toronto Police Service Organization, along with my, one of my board members are on on racism, homophobia and classism within the Toronto Police Services that led to the disappearance and the murder of six men who are from South Asian, Middle Eastern communities, and then two white men. And then, when you look at the class structure as well, so that's sort of my work. And right now in Winnipeg, I moved back to sort of, you know, gain myself, sense of self again, that I lost while I was there doing all that work. Because a lot of that work does take away your identity because you're so involved, and then you lose your path. And so I came back to Winnipeg, home to recollect myself, and worked at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights as their director of equity and growth, and currently back in community, because I think that's where my passion lies, and where I feel I can make more of an impact and change at clinic, which is a community health center working with diverse populations. It's

Stuart Murray 2:43

a great sort of background and experience that brings you know the conversations around awareness and activism and what you've done in your in your career, and so thanks for for the introduction, thanks for sharing what you're doing just before we get into sort of the issues around awareness and activism. I've done some work with clinic. They are obviously an amazing organization. Just before we get into the conversation, just share, what is it that you're working on right now at clinic? Yeah, so

Haran Vijayananthan 3:13

we've got a number of programs. So we got the mental health and crises, or crises and counseling, sorry, department where we focus on mental health issues and concerns and trying to help people through their processes, along with groups and then with the health services piece of it, which is what I'm in charge of, along with our medical director, Dr Andrew Lodge, we offer comprehensive primary health care for folks who are underinsured, uninsured, under house as well as the general population within the West Broadway downtown area, some of the programs that we offer that are special are the drop in STI programs testing as well as the gender affirming care of the trans clinic program, and more recently, under the mental health and well crises program. We're offering the community based sexual assault forensic nursing program for folks who've experienced sexual assault, and again, it's open to anybody who's experienced it. And it's a community based care program and relationships with many different organizations to ensure that we have a comprehensive and smooth process for individuals to follow after a crisis. As you

Stuart Murray 4:15

say, it's a community health center, and community, I think, is the key word there, because you're very much engaged in in all elements to the community. So So thank you, Haran, for sharing kind of some of the work that you're doing. One of the things I just wanted to get your sense from your perspective, Horan, is, if you look from a sort of a human rights standpoint, how do you distinguish between raising awareness and, say, taking action? Well,

Haran Vijayananthan 4:39

I mean, I always say that if you're living in 2025 now, unless you're a young child, but even then, young children tend to know. They're all aware of the behaviors and the issues in society. You know, due to online media and people, people sort of raising their voices the protests that's been happening on many fronts. And you know, especially last year and the year before, around gender affirming care and the trans communities. And then when you look at George Floyd and Brian Sinclair and Joyce echaquan and all the injustices that have occurred very publicly, I think you know, you would be living under a rock or totally ignorant if you weren't aware of the issues of human rights violations in in the country and the city now, in particular in Winnipeg. I mean, when it that's, that's awareness. I mean, sometimes I hear conversations of, well, I don't see color, and I treat everybody the same. Or, you know, the space is open to everybody, and we don't want to treat people differently. Or, I know that's happening over there, but not really here. And that's not me. You know that classic example of, you know, when someone was called a racist, like, I'm not a racist. My neighbors are black, or my neighbors are indigenous. Those kinds of sentiments still continue to happen. But, you know, there is awareness already, I think in terms of activism and action, it's, what are you going to do about it? Right? And it's as simple as, okay, someone called you a racist, is to stop and think and understand why they might have called you a racist. It's taken a minute to understand why that's happening. And rather than going into the defense mode that a lot of people do, it's actually doing the simple actions of really self reflecting. And I mean, even with myself on a daily basis, you know, when I look at who I am and I introduce myself as this Sri Lankan Tamil gay man. Automatically, people look at me and see me and assume that I'm at the bottom of the ladder, and therefore they don't acknowledge some of the privileges that I do, which I carry cis male privilege, and in the context in which those happen, right? And so it's an active response of myself to be aware of my surroundings and of my situation so that I can if someone does turn around and say, you actually being sexist or you were being transphobic, the response is, well, I can't be transphobic because I'm gay myself, right? And so it's really being aware of that and and it's so that that's the individual action that you can take, and then the systemic action to calling out systems very publicly, but also sitting down to work with them, if you're able to do so, and if not just calling it out is, is just fine, but making sure that we're contributing to systems change so that we're not doing a check box activity of, oh yeah, we have 10, you know, people of color, and we have five LGBT folks. We're we're good, you know, we're diverse, and we're addressing the issues. To me, those are, those are performative actions, but actually looking at policies and procedural changes, looking at budgets to see how we accommodate these changes going forward. So to me, that's more human rights based action, from individual to sort of systemic.

Stuart Murray 7:38

You know, Haran, one of the things that you mentioned just in your comments about the the somebody saying, you know, I don't see color, you know, I sort of look at people, you know. I have to tell you that, you know, for my time, when I was sort of the inaugural president, CEO of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, you know, I learned so so much for so many amazing people there. But I think for a white man to be able to, at the beginning, to sort of say, I don't see color. I think what that was trying to say, hopefully it's, I'm trying to see everybody the same. I see everybody equal. I don't, you know, sort of make difference. Having said that, I was corrected by a number of people who said, No, I think it's important you see color, because the color doesn't make anybody different. It is still, you're still the same human being. We're still treated equal. But yes, I do have a different color of skin than you, and please recognize that. And so you know that for me, was really quite, you know, sort of an education. And you know, one of the reasons I love this podcast is I always learn from people in some of the areas that you think you're doing something, and I think you use the word performative, which I think we want to come back and talk a fair bit about that, because I think there's a lot of that, particularly on social media these days. But you know, Haran, you mentioned something about systemic change, or systemic issues, I just kind of put this into perspective. Is awareness alone enough? Do you think to drive systemic change, or do you think you need activism? Is that always necessary?

Haran Vijayananthan 9:05

It is always necessary. Awareness is great. And I think it's Martin Luther King, and I'm going to not, you know, quote him on the big but you know, it's the moderate liberal that's more of a problem than the right wing conservative. Or to something that effect that Martin Luther King had said, and that always sticks with me. And I wish I could do better to remember the quote, but I don't, but it is right. It is like awareness to me. Is that moderate? But like, I know it happens. I'm sorry. It happens, the apologetics on a regular basis, and it comes across on many occasions, especially when we look at gun violence the United States, as our thoughts and our prayers are with you. Well, the children are still dead, right? What are you going to do about it so that other children are not going to die? That's usually what the trauma police services and other police service organizations across the country and the world do, is there's harm cause. It's like, well, we won't do it again. Or there's this is a learning opportunity, blah, blah, that's awareness, but with no as substantive action to it. The action. Must accompany the awareness and apologies can happen at the beginning, but also apologies need to come with action as well. Otherwise, you're just basically again, going back to that word again, performative, right? And you're trying to pass the buck, and you're trying to sort of distance yourself from the issues that whatever organization or institution that you're representing, or even yourself, is just continue to contribute to, and the situation will just continue to get

Stuart Murray 10:27

worse. And when you're having conversations or making presentations, Haran, as you, as you would do with your with your history of what you've done professionally, with your career, do you find that people are open to really understanding the difference between awareness and activism. Or do you get a sense that people start kind of nodding their head, up and down even before you finish the sentence, which is to sort of say, No, I do understand it. But you're, you're looking at them and saying, I'm not sure you do.

Haran Vijayananthan 10:59

Oh, and all the time. I mean, you know, you get a mixture of people, and you can see the ones where, you know, the light bulb goes off, and then the other ones are just like, okay, when is this going to be over? I'm tired of being bashed for being for my thoughts and opinions and values and beliefs. And again, it is a human right to have your own values, thoughts and beliefs. But when you're in public and you're in society, you kind of sort of have to look at how it's going to work within community, right, and within that broader good. And so, you know, you do see that. And then I get challenges like, Well, what do I need to do, and how do I do it? And then people become overwhelmed with what they what they need to do to become active in what they see as discrimination. But then also, you look at those individuals who want to make a change and want to to make a huge difference in society and what they see, but they're also afraid for themselves, because then that means backlash against them in terms of potential employment laws, potential of credibility within community, within society, in their own circles, etc. And so action doesn't come, but awareness is there, and then they do their best to do what they can. So it's not easy, like even when I, for example, when I went to challenge the Toronto Police Services, I was hugely afraid. And my mother would call me and say, You gotta be careful what you're saying to them, because then they might come and heart hurt you. And I'm like, Mom, we're not in that time of the world right now where that kind of power can enforce and we're not in that kind of a country. But, you know, I could have been totally wrong about that too, but I had to trust some level to the system. But then it worked out well. And again, it's giving people the tools on how you would do approach that. So the approach was with my, you know, my board member, and working with the direction of the board to really look at this is what the problem is. This is how you we want you to handle it. How are you going to work with us? Right? And sort of, if we can have a template that makes everybody feel comfortable to do what they need to do. And leadership, I mean, if you're a leader in an organization or institution, you can put to your net code on the line a little bit more than the folks in entry level positions or even middle management. So I think there's a level of bravery that needs to exist when you're engaging in action and but again, to your question, you get the gamut, but people do get overwhelmed, and then that tends to be the stopping point of what they're going to do next. And then it just continues to be awareness.

Stuart Murray 13:18

Yeah. So Horan, can you maybe just share you know, from your perspective, one of the successes you were able to achieve with your relationship with the Toronto Police Services.

Haran Vijayananthan 13:27

It wasn't the easiest of times, for sure, especially going through the whole system and going through the trials in 19 2019, and 2020, but working with Judge Epstein and my board chair, our board member, sorry, Chuck here to really look at how we create the terms of reference for the review to happen, the pathways that we're going to work towards and really be an active member at the table, rather than a passive member and insisting on it. And so as a result of that, you know, Justice Epstein was able to adopt the terms of reference of community and the police drew up together. There were very little changes that were made. And then so shock here, and I decided to split our roles up, and I did all the community pieces, so the community engagement, the community capacity building, all that kind of stuff. Then right now, I'm still the co chair of the missing and missed implementation team with the Toronto Police Services, where we're actually getting criticism because we're taking too long to implement the 151 recommendation, versus stopping to think that we're actually looking at each recommendation, grouping them and structuring them in a way and implement implementing them in a way where the system is actually making change on how they engage marginalized or vulnerable populations when a missing persons report is made, it's been four years in the making, and we're like 80% through all of the recommendations. And so I thought that's a true success, and we're actually influencing organizations in the international community in terms of how they work and deal with individuals who are missing. We have a. Be a group of individuals who are from the, you know, disability community, with from the queer community, from the sex worker community, who are all sitting at the table together alongside police officers to really address some of those issues. So some of the recommendations in terms of implementation was, don't use people's last name on the poster, change the color and context of it, because then what you're doing is you're setting people up for success if they're found, but you're having descriptions that's enough for police officers and community to look for them along with the picture, putting in particular pieces of information that might help the individual. So if that person does have a mental health diagnosis or other features that are relevant to the police officer engaging with the person, if they're found that actually just soften, softens the interaction and makes it more of a positive and a successful interaction. So it's those kinds of things that we're actually putting in place, where I'm really proud to say that activism and then action and partnership actually has led to systemic change as it addressed are they perfect? Absolutely not. Is there always room to grow 100% and so also building that into that structure is, how do we make it so that the processes are nimble enough that when as community changes, which they will and and communities grow, that the process also changes along with it.

Stuart Murray 16:21

Yeah, lots to lots to unpack there. Aharon, congratulations, for sure. I mean, because I do think that a lot of comments in the Human Rights world that I keep hearing loud and clear from people like you, who are advocates, educators in that human rights world always talk about the importance of systemic changes that you can't go in and just sort of nibble on the sides or the edges or talk about retraining or those sorts of elements. You're talking about systemic changes, which is exactly what you've introduced there. And so thank you for sharing. I just want to come back to one thing you caught my interest when you said on if you're picking up a use the word poster and you say that, rather than putting their last name, can you give me an example? Specifically, what were you referring to there?

Haran Vijayananthan 17:06

In the past, what used to happen with missing persons posters or information is, you know, Karan for Jonathan, description has gone missing. And so now, with the with the digital age that there is that information is then online and for for everyone to see at any point. So the information that was raised and the the to our consciousness was that if there are potential employers or other individuals googling a person's name and that missing person's post, it comes up that actually is an impediment to the future existence of that individual, including traveling abroad. You know, there was a history where folks with mental illness were reported to the border services so that they weren't able to cross to visit anyone, so that, you know, and that law has changed significantly, but sometimes the practices still exist, and so that was brought to our consciousness. So now it's just Haran. This description has gone missing, and there's a picture. So it's not so easy to to search somebody. I mean, that's a very if you have a very common name, then whatever. But you know, if you have a very unique name, that challenge still exists, like mine. You know, it actually then diminishes the potential.

Stuart Murray 18:16

Okay? Yo, no. Thanks very much for sharing. Have you been able to bring some of that conversation, Haran, you talked about moving it outside of the Toronto Police Services to a more almost a global perspective, has some of that found its way into the Winnipeg Police Services? I

Haran Vijayananthan 18:30

do know that the officers in the Missing Persons Unit have done presentations across the country to the various police organizations. I believe Winnipeg was a part of those conversations as well, when

Stuart Murray 18:42

you talk about some of, maybe some of the effectiveness and challenges with respect to, you know, awareness and activism, are there some common barriers that you would see, or you have seen, that prevent some of the awareness to become activism? That there's just barriers along the way that prevent that to take place.

Haran Vijayananthan 19:02

Gosh, there's many, and I think I spoke to them a bit earlier, around potential loss of employment, credibility within community and and the optics within their own communities, if they feel differently. Fear of isolation and repercussions are huge barriers for individuals to take action, even when, especially when you saw in the last couple of years, around the million Pearson march against the trans community and gender affirming care, you know, there were a lot of folks who were marginalized themselves or racialized themselves on the other side, and so there's tension between, well, how do we handle this? Now, the intersectionality is coming through, not just on the oppression side, but also the folks who are doing the oppressing and those relationships. And how do you navigate that, so that you're not giving up on your own values of challenging but you know, it's the it's the skills building and the critical thought that doesn't continue to exist in many spaces now, which I think is is a huge barrier. Ability to critically think about what's going on, looking at the history of what's going on, what happened in the past, and why things are moving the way they are, looking at what's going on in that particular space during these organizing of the of the rallies, whether whether you're the activist or you're the you're the person on the other side doesn't exist. I think those are huge barriers that continue to plague people who want to try and do the right thing and want to get involved and be very active in their awareness, but often come short of it. And it sounds like an excuse, but it's unfortunate when you look at sort of especially when I speak for with folks in people of color communities, and even, like, some of my staff here is like, around I can't do that because I'm going to lose my job, and then I'll get reported to the license. I can't show up because I go to that mosque, or I go to that church, you know? And so they want to show up and they want to do but then they can't, and so, and those are very big realities for many individuals,

Stuart Murray 21:00

and those barriers, Horan, are they something that is just evident in communities like, you know, sort of in Canada, or would you say that something that would be carried across, sort of a more global perspective? Because I, I'm only asking that in the sense that from from what you see in your world, there are barriers that exist in communities that are like by design put in so that there can be no availability awareness can be made, but no activism can make, possibly follow. But is that something that you would say is endemic to certain communities or cities, or is that just kind of more of a broad statement. I

Haran Vijayananthan 21:41

think that's a more of a broad statement. I mean, even if you look at from racialized communities, if you look at folks you know of what was happening in Russia and the queer community, there's a lot of Russians who actually don't believe in persecuting folks who are LGBT identified, but can't really say anything. Or even China, so a lot of those countries that we kind of sort of say they're the bad people. There are not all bad people. They all believe in human rights, and they all want to make a change, but then they have systems that cannot accommodate opposition, and so that's why they come here. And then, you know, and then, but they, when they come here, they're still part of those communities that still limit them as well. Some people are brave, and they do put their face forward, because then they can fit themselves into other communities. But then when they go into other communities, they face racism or other forms of discriminations, when a discriminatory behavior when they're in those communities. So it really does pose a huge problem in terms of belonging. And how do you see and so again, everyone really needs to understand all these intersectional identities and how they kind of move within different spaces, and how are we going to support one another through this whole process? And I have many people on sort of the, if you want to call it, the left side, who are participating in racist behavior on a regular basis. Right again, it's like, I don't see color. I love everybody. But they're also going to show up to that protest, but they're also going to say something racist in a party in the guise of having a conversation. So it really is, again, down to that education awareness is good, but it's really the education and what people need to do to move things forward.

Stuart Murray 23:15

Full disclosure on this, Horan, maybe a bit of a loaded question. I you know, I loved how you said that people have to understand intersectionality and the importance of it. I totally agree with that statement. But what I guess, I would love to ask you is when you say that people have to understand, I mean, that's not You're not it's that that's not a finger pointer. I mean, what you're saying is that that understanding and that education is important to bring that issue forward so that people can look at it with more of an openness. And I think that's where the understanding comes from. But how have you or how have you seen through work that you've done the creation of the understanding? I mean, again, the word intersectionality for some is, stop for one second. Please explain what that is. Then, what do I need to do to understand the importance of that with respect to activism? So

Haran Vijayananthan 24:06

again, and I'll go back to me as an example, right? Like I have intersecting identities of gay, South Asian, new to the country, lived in poverty, all of those things make up who I am, but when I'm in spaces, you know, in particular, and I can speak about, you know, the gender affirming care program that we have here at clinic is to sort of look at, if I said something transphobic, and my folks have said, Horan, that was the most transphobic thing that I've ever heard. It's me not going into defense mode and an apologetic modes like, whoa. You know, it's that taking of that second to take, to understand what happened there, and what things I said and what things I didn't say or should have said that caused this behavior, and then having an informative conversation or a dialog, again, not in the apologetic or defensive sense, and I think that's the relationship that I've built. With my team here and many folks in the community. Okay, so what did I do wrong here? Help me understand and then apologize, and then don't do it again, right? And people you know go into this, I'm still learning. I'm still trying to understand. I'm too old for this. This is not what I learned from you know, this is not my training, or this is not my teaching. Well, I mean, you're a lifer for students, so don't worry about when you were learning what you learned. It's the unlearning of stuff. I feel like I'm dumbing it down too much, but at the end of the day, that's basically what it is, right? I

Stuart Murray 25:32

appreciate that, because again, and I apologize for interrupting, but I think it's super important for anybody who's listening to this podcast, you know, a lot of people will have been learning everything that you've been saying around for a number of people, it's a learning opportunity to really understand. So when you take a moment and to really explain your relationship, your personal relation to intersectionality, I think that's a great way to start a grounding so that they can start moving the discussion forward. The you know, the from time to time, there is obviously an age gap as we're going through things like pronouns, you know, even sort of what I would call opportunities around where people sort of say, well, there's, there's only two sexes, which means, and people could say, yeah, exactly, which means there's only two genders. And it's like, just a minute, hang on for a second. You know what I mean? But, you know, people look at those and they intertwine, interchange them and say, No, gender, sex, same thing. It is not, and it's part of that learning that allows, I think, the conversation, and more openly, I think, from a human rights perspective, the acceptance of people to understand that, yeah, we are trying our best to all be equal here, but it requires that systemic sort of opportunity to to really engage when you say, there's something about coming from you because you're you're highly educated, highly trained, highly experienced. I'll just use your term, and I don't mean it a derogatory it's an important thing, but to say dumbing down, to simplify, I think that's really, really critical in this conversation.

Haran Vijayananthan 27:00

No, for sure. And again, those are the that's the teaching and that's the learning. I mean, there's been such a huge pushback against having these important conversations and acknowledging your own privileges that you hold, even though people have been trained white, cis, white men, heterosexual are at the top of the ladder and everyone else, which is true in many contexts, and the system was set up that way to benefit that particular group of people. However, through the work of human rights action and over the number of years, people have gained different rights along the way that then privilege. So again, when I look at myself, my CIS gay privilege of a cisgender male privilege who currently now holds a title of director, who makes a certain amount of money in some of those spaces, I actually can cause harm, especially if folks are from a gender diverse community or racialized other than what who they see me as. And again, those could be assumptions, but those assumptions are based in people's past experiences. So it may not be you, but it was someone who looked and acted like you at one point. So that relationship building, and again, indigenous communities have been saying this forever, and I think when one of your podcasts, you talked about taking a look at a treaty and reading a treaty, and the relationships that that come as a result of that is holding true to those relationships right, and being that means you have to be open to being wrong. You have to be open to being challenged, and you have to be open to having a conversation without being offended if you've caused the harm. Then acknowledge that someone is mad at you and allow them to have a conversation with you. And then you need to debrief with somebody else like that, you they don't become that debrief person, right? And so again, with my my staff, my folks here, we have that honest conversation on a regular basis. And because we were able to build relationships, we can say and do things in a more transparent way, and allows us to get things done sooner than later. And again, with them, we get to think about all the different things. So when we're now translating that project or program into community, then it's like, okay, we thought about all of this, like, what people are going to say, what people are going to experience, and how are we going to manage this? And so we're building a more robust and inclusive programming for community than who can have a better experience with us when their experience has never, always been the greatest with us. So that's where leadership comes in, or that's where people are recognizing their privilege comes in to have those conversations. And it's not clutching the proverbial pearls because you've been offended.

Stuart Murray 29:33

Yeah, yeah. Well said, Haran, would you sort of look at the landscape in Toronto? I mean, it's a bigger city than Winnipeg. I'm going to give you a sort of a sense to do a comparative from your perspective. I mean, I've lived in Toronto for a number of years. I mean, it is you might it may. You can disagree with me, if you like, on this one, having spent time in Toronto as you have, I wouldn't say that that Toronto is much more diverse than Winnipeg. It's just it's a bigger city. And so there. A lot more issues that go on, a lot more energy, a lot more things that happen. But from from your perspective, Horan, would you look at the landscape in Toronto and the landscape in in Winnipeg, from the sense of the opportunity for the community to be activists on human rights issues, would you say that there's a comparison between the two that you would like to make an observation on? That's

Haran Vijayananthan 30:25

a very interesting question. I think with more people, the opportunity to be more action oriented is far safer than it is in a smaller city like us that you are is where you know you're recognized even in a large group of people, and I think that would be the comparison that I would make, 100% there are lots of people here, but there's a lot of people that don't show up to protests and things like that, are really speak up and out again for that fear of repercussion from their own community, or whatever that might look like, whereas in Toronto, you can blend a little bit more. So if that camera pans or, you know, a picture is taken. Chances are you're not going to be in that picture. You could sort of, you know, figure something out. So I think it's that safety factor of being able to be open and honest about how you feel. But we also live in a very conservative province, so politically, it could also be a detrimental for individuals, especially those who are marginalized, who who have a lot to lose. So if you're new to the country and you're participating in protest or things like that, that also then harms you in different ways. And so just being open to us, I think that would be the only observation that I make. But when I work in organizations, unless there's an intentional hire or, you know, it's still a very white organization. It's still very white at the tops of many institutions across this province. And so oftentimes, you know, you have your small table of people of color who are employed. Or, you know, even though you want to increase diversity, and even when you look at, you know, indigenous community engagement in different institutions, the numbers are still quite small, and yet we have the largest population of indigenous urban folks in the country. But when you look in Toronto, there's a field and it's quite visible and transparent that there's far more diverse opinion than thoughts within institutions and employment, even in the police organization. However, those individuals may have adopted the mainstream attitudes, values and beliefs for survival or not, and that's just how they believe. And so they contribute to the harms as well, because that's what they feel they need to do to be able to survive and thrive and be a part of the organization that happens here as well. I don't know that. I don't know that answer that clearly, but it is quite complex. You

Stuart Murray 32:43

know, kind of just having lived in both cities as we both have, it's just interesting to your your lens that you bring would be much different than mine at that point, because that I was doing so much different things when I was in Toronto, Haran, one of the things I wanted to just get your thoughts on is the you know, we're this conversation is around human rights, around awareness and around activism. What role good, bad or indifferent? Have you seen social media play? And, you know, seems to me, we talked a little bit at the outset about performative seems to me that social media has done gives a tremendous platform for people that want to be performative, but I'd love, from your perspective, to see, how do you see using social media to move from awareness into activism? Oh,

Haran Vijayananthan 33:30

dear. Well, social media has taken on a life of its own, and so anybody and everybody can post anything that they want to on it. And therefore, again, it's that element of critical thought that is not taught to many people to really verify if this information is correct or not. Many institutions are talking about, you know, taking pictures and saying, oh, Black History Month this or Asian heritage month, we had samosas for lunch. You know, those kinds of things. It's like, you know, I'm simplifying it, but it's true. You know, I joke all the time. It's like, oh yeah. People understand the South Asian culture because they've gone to folklore and had a couple of samosas and a roti and so, you know, but that's not the full understanding. So, you know, it is maybe education. And I think that's where it is, is, how do you actually utilize social media to, number one, advertise all of the issues and concerns that are occurring in the world. But how do people then take that information and interpret it in the best way possible? What research do you need to do? Who do you need to go to? So it really is not the platform itself. I mean, maybe the platforms are the ones who need to fund the education on how you actually use social media effectively and engage in the critical thought and train people on how to have critical thought. And I think that's why we have the issues around, you know, the Maga folks in the United States and folks similar like that in Canada, who say, Oh, you know what? It's the immigrants who are, you know, causing the drug problem in the country, and when it really isn't right. And how do you then help people understand. At it inform them on that, rather than just focusing on one piece of information that people then weaponize, and they're weaponizing social media. And so it is, you know, those individuals who are, you know, developing these tools that need to look at what are human rights principles and social ethics that are involved as things are being posted, and a lot of what was advanced in the past years are now being undone, a classic example of X and sort of allowing for certain things to be posted and and blocking others. You know, it's all of those kinds of things that are complex. So social media is a great tool and great platform, but hugely performative. It allows people who don't truly believe in who are capitalizing on on issues of diversity, equity and inclusion, capitalizing on discrimination, saying that, claiming things that they're not but or that they are but they are not, in practice. So it's a huge money making industry so capitalism, it's a part of that lovely fabric of capitalism that we have to undo. But again, it is if we can educate people on how to properly use social media, clean information, validate and check facts. You know, this is where I jokingly say, sometimes I wish we had the encyclopedia still. You know, it forced you to go to the library and do some more reading and have conversation rather than being, you know, your own little system behind your phone in that talks about my age, but it, you know, I feel like what folks are doing now, even listening to my nieces and nephews and what we had to do, I'm like, Oh my gosh, did you dig deeper into that? Can you tell me more what you learn? Can you look at all the resources that you access to formulate this opinion of this particular group of people. They're lovely humans. But, you know, it's, it's having those conversations with those lovely humans so that they're not going the other way to going forward. Yeah,

Stuart Murray 36:53

yeah. You know, I, you know, when I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights around I had a chance to interact with the folks at Library and Archives in Ottawa. And that the time, I had a conversation with the with the gentleman who was the executive director there, and he was saying that this goes back a number of years ago, but the point he was trying to make is that his daughter, who was writing her PhD, was doing her research, and of course, a lot of the research that she was doing was on the internet, and all he was trying to say is, can you please check and verify because, you know, live in archives, makes a living of that, whereas the internet sometimes it's just rushed to get information out and fact check later. And so to your point, you know, we, we kind of live in that, in that world today, is there anything Haran that you have specifically seen personally, where social media has had a very positive impact on awareness, into taking action on something? Well, I

Haran Vijayananthan 37:55

think the whole George Floyd movement right? And that was huge, and even with Joyce echaquan And the number of women of color, or black women in the United States who have lost their lives to police violence. You know, we there was that interesting conversation as well, like, can we talk about black men who get murdered by police in the United States and Canada, but we don't talk about the black women who are murdered by police in so and there was that huge campaign, the metoo movements, those kinds of actions. And again, there was a lot of people saying the same thing. And they all came together, and they flooded the the social media platforms with that information, and then resource them. The Black Lives Matter movement too, right? And when you look at all of those really great organized campaigns, those were the best ways to get that information out, and had some critical thought. But then, of course, you know now you have individuals who are weaponizing those pieces of information, and then they're flipping the story. Was like, What about white lives matter? And what about all lives matter? It's like, well, yes, all lives do matter. 100% no one's denying that, but black people have been ignored, and so we do need to sort of elevate that, elevate that population, and talk about it within that context, also trans folks, right? Queer folks. So, yeah, so I would say those are the most successful campaigns that I've noticed and understood to actually cause change. You know, if we can get the Prime Minister, even though it's performative, in my opinion, to take the knee during a protest, I think we've done something good.

Stuart Murray 39:28

You know, the news is filled. It's hard not to hear what's happening south of the border. Some of the changes that are being made, you know, they're very they're very clearly attacking, you know, sort of the whole diverse equity, inclusion, I don't know if I should call it. Is it? Would it be fair to call it? Was that a movement? Oh, yeah. So if you look at that movement being attacked there, you know, if you were to say is that some of that may be coming across the 49th parallel into Canada, what advice would you give to listeners who. Who are saying, How can we take action so that we can help that that doesn't take place here, take hold here. I think,

Haran Vijayananthan 40:07

sadly, it's already happening, and it's taking place here, right? It's not as dominant and as loud however. You know, we did see the trucker movement happen here. Similar lines around COVID, that community is alive and well in this country and in Manitoba and Winnipeg. But again, it's again going back to folks to sort of say, when you hear things that are being said, Please do some research and do some digging. Right? Go to some of the sources. Look at both sides. Don't just look at the one side or the other. Look at both sides. Look at the arguments. Look at some of the facts. It's also some of these institutions. Look at the credibility of those institutions, organizations, and how those decisions are made to really educate and inform. Like, I can't say that enough. I mean, even with me here's like, Well, this looks kind of interesting, and it could look like it makes sense, but really, who is it coming from and why is it coming from there? But then, what is the is the other side saying about this? Right? When I was doing an interview for a position, the candidate said, Well, when you're looking at a conversation and there's a disagreement, you have to understand that there's three sides to a story. And I think that sort of stuck with me, like you have to look at one side and then the other side, and then the truth lies somewhere in the middle or in the spectrum somewhere. So there is three sides to this story, and sometimes more, depending on the number of people that are involved. So it's just really taking that into consideration. Again, it's a simple thing to do, but really fact check, do your research and have a solid understanding of what's happening, not an emotional reaction, and emotions are a good thing. Have that emotional reaction, but take a minute to check it. And that applies to social media, that applies to when someone challenges you, and that applies to any sort of situation. When it comes to human rights, how

Stuart Murray 41:55

important is activism when you're dealing with governments who ultimately shape policy. And can that activism be used for some as an impediment for actually moving forward? People will look and say, you know, there's a radical element to this activism. Would you say that to give somebody advice as to how can they use activism to create in a positive way, hopefully positive way, policy developed by both provincial or federal government,

Haran Vijayananthan 42:28

yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, defining activism is another way. There's many different ways that you can be an activist or engage in activism, right? There's education activism, and then there's the, you know, your full on protests and anything in between. So one thing with the police that we did is we basically said, here's your problem. This is what we are calling you out on. And I think it is quite valid, because when you look at all of the patterns here, it is quite valid. This is what we need from you, and this is how we're willing to contribute, right? So that, I would say that's more of an education, engagement form of activism that we did with the Toronto Police Services, which was fruitful, you know, it moved us in the right direction. And I think that's the same thing with governments. Is again, look at both sides and find that middle ground that you can sit down and have a conversation about. I mean, there's something that we did here where I met with the women and gender equity Manitoba folks. Jamie Carnegie was in it at the time as the executive director, and we had a conversation to say, there isn't a strategic plan for LGBT Q to S engagement in Manitoba. There's a provincial strategy, but there isn't one for Manitoba. And while that might seem radical to some, it actually isn't radical. It's actually like, how are we going to create a plan so that we're more intentional and engaging in systemic change when it comes to this particular group of people, and you can apply that to any group of people, and then when you're looking at intersectionalities. And so that was a proposal we had a great conversation with as a community, and we're moving that forward. And that was moved forward, and went to the minister's table, and everything was done. And so there's a strategy being created right now. So I think you know, and that way, when there's a strategy, then you're allocating budget, you're allocating policy times, you're understanding some of the ways in which you can understand some of the gaps in services, and how to build services forward. And that too, is a form of activism, right in terms of looking at strategic change and policy change from a point of, here's a community that is underserved, traditionally and historically and currently, in Manitoba, today and across the province. And so it really is looking at some of those nuances. And then, of course, you need the people who are going to be out there on the legislature grounds and on Parliament Hill with the signs and yelling and screaming and doing what they need to do. That's the awareness raising part, and that is important and and totally supported. And I go to those things too. But again, there's that other piece of now, action and engagement with that piece. So you need to look at all that. And governments, again, don't should not be afraid of radical change. If it wasn't for radical change, we would not be here, right? We would still be living and. Uh, Mississippi Burning, and all of those areas of Jim Crow, and even with, you know, residential school systems here in Canada and other forms of oppression where we didn't allow folks to come off the Komagata Maru, or, you know, when Jewish settlers tried to come to Canada and we left them sitting on a boat as well. And so we have our own shady past as well that we need to reckon with, and that the changes happened because they were radical. People protested, and then we became we sat down and we had a conversation on how we're going to move forward.

Stuart Murray 45:29

And I think what's great about your comments, Horan, is that education is so critical in these conversations. And you know, education in the classroom is is kind of what we're sort of brought up with and used to, but the kind of education you talked about, I mean, being out on the legislative grounds, you know, with a sign, with a voice, with a message, looking at educating people about why you're standing, why you're taking your personal time to stand out there, to to create a message, or to create awareness. So, you know, education starts to take on many, many different forms of which you shared. So I really appreciate that, and I want to thank you so much for your for your time. Is there anything at all that I didn't ask you today that you would like to share with anybody who's listening to this podcast? No,

Haran Vijayananthan 46:17

I think it was a pretty good conversation. So I really am very grateful for you having me on your show and to talk about, sort of my perspectives and and again, there's many different ways of doing things right, and there's no one right way, but I think we just have to do it together and figure out ways to understand our differences, but come to consensus on how we're going to move that forward. And so I think that's how change happens as well. So but thank you very much for the opportunity. It was nice to see you again. Okay, Haran, thank you so much.

Matt Cundill 46:45

Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davie, music by Doug Edmond For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca

Tara Sands (Voiceover) 47:06

produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai