Dr. Stanley Amaladas: Trust, Rights, and Human Dignity

We sit down with Dr. Stanley Amaladas, Director of the Mauro Institute for Peace and Justice at the University of Manitoba. Dr. Amaladas reflects on his journey from Malaysia to Canada and shares a powerful story about his citizenship interview that shaped his understanding of human rights, responsibility, and dignity.

We're exploring:

• How an uncomfortable citizenship interview became a lesson about rights, power, and responsibility

• The difference between the legal framework of rights and our human responsibility to others

• Why "who's right and who's wrong?" is often the wrong question in conflict resolution

• Dr. Amaladas' vision for continuing Arthur Mauro's dream of making Winnipeg a "cultural centre for hope"

• The importance of approaching difficult conversations with curiosity instead of judgment

• How we can speak to those in positions of power "in a way that is not tyrannical"

Dr. Amaladas brings both academic expertise in Leadership Studies and personal experience to this thoughtful discussion about what it means to lead for peace. His perspective on treating people as people first - recognizing their dignity beyond their utility - offers an important lesson for navigating today's divided world.

As Dr. Amaladas reminds us: "It's not going to come from theories or big ideas. It's going to come from people who treat people as people."

Learn more about the Arthur V. Mauro Institute for Peace & Justice

Episode Transcript:

Stuart Murray 0:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 0:20

This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray, one

Stuart Murray 0:32

of the great opportunities that I have is to meet with various people, and I had a great chance to have a breakfast meeting with my guest to Dr Stanley amaladis, who has been serving as the Director of the Moore Institute for Peace and Justice at St Paul's College. Now, Stanley has had a three year term, beginning following his appointment by the St Paul's College Board of Governors in June of 2024 and one of the things that we had a little bit of a conversation about, I'd like to get into in this podcast, Stanley. But first, for those who are listening, and I know there's a lot of people out at the University of Manitoba campus, St Paul's campus, that know you well, but for those that aren't, just maybe do a quick introduction of yourself and just share a little bit about what you're doing

Stanley Amaladas 1:23

about myself. Well, you know, I came to Canada nearly 50 years ago. The first university building that I walked into was St Paul's College. St Paul's College has always been dear to my heart. The nation tradition has always been close to both my mind and heart. Being in this position, I think it's, it's a wonderful way of coming home and at the same time making a contribution to St Paul's College in this role. And it's great to be a part of Arthur Morrows vision, not only for our institute, but also his vision for for Winnipeg as being as what he called as being the the new Geneva. And he called it, I mean he, he had that speech that he made at in 2009 I believe, at the Jewish Foundation of Manitoba, so but he was quite clear that he really wanted to see Winnipeg, or you envision Winnipeg as being the center for peace and justice. So when you raise the so that's and my learning is, is in the field of Leadership Studies, more recently, in in peace, leadership. And so I'm always looking into what does it mean to lead for peace. It's good to join you today and talk about what you you feel of human rights in this whole aspect, right?

Stuart Murray 2:48

Yeah. Sally, yeah. No. Thanks for that. And, you know, one of the, one of the things, obviously, that, when you mentioned that, you know, was 50 years ago, ish, that you, you walk through the doors and with Saint Paul's College. What? What was there a particular reason that you found that doorway versus other doorways? Is there something that you applied for there, or something got you interested? Or how is it that you walked through that doorway?

Stanley Amaladas 3:13

I was born in Malaysia at a very young age. Of course. Yes.

Stuart Murray 3:19

Most people are young when they're born, and

Stanley Amaladas 3:22

and my journey is kind of a little winding. I for, for a number of years, I was in the seminary, you know, learning to to become a Catholic priest that but I stepped out, you know, needing to kind of rediscern or discern where my path was leading and so. So when I came to University of Manitoba, I was quite conscious and aware that I wanted to continue to be a part of a Catholic institution and St Paul's College. Was that it was rather deliberate my classes was primarily at the on the campus of University of Manitoba, without doubt, in many ways, I formed many, many friendships here, and it was like home for me, in a way, that there was some things that were familiar while being in a very unfamiliar place. I came as a student. So there was no family here, no relatives of any kind here. So there was no script that I could follow from from the past. So was the script that was written as I was here. And so that was a choice that I made to come to U of M, but also be an integral part of the college, yes.

Stuart Murray 4:39

And so when you first started Stan, go back to those early days started the college, what sorts of roles did you have then? That the reason I'm asking is just to sort of that journey that now finds you in a position where you're serving as the Director of the morrow Institute for Peace and Justice. Well, I'm

Stanley Amaladas 4:56

not sure about roles, but I was primarily in a role of a learner and student. Student. I was very involved, and sociology was where my field, my discipline of study, I did my undergraduate and masters in the field of sociology. Had the wonderful privilege of meeting up with Dr Ray curry, Raymond curry from sociology, and he himself was a sociology of religion, so very much concerned about that. And I was, like everybody else, part of a community. I got involved in a number of different student bodies. Who's here, did my volunteer of work here at the college and at the university. So it was nothing major, highlighting from that perspective, right? But also learning, learning the culture, learning the culture of Canada. And I must say that my experience here at the college, I met some, some wonderful people, very, very supportive. And it's good to know that what I received from the students who became dear friends was I felt welcomed when I was interviewed for this role as the director of the Mauro Institute. One of the questions was asked of me was, well, what do you see? How do you see yourself in this role, what kind of a place do you want this place to be? And the first answer I gave, I want our place to be a welcoming place. And so my role is, how can I be a welcoming presence to others that come to the college and, you know, and also to into Winnipeg, into Manitoba and and Canada, right? So that that's and I try to do that in enough, not big ways, but in your everyday way of life and being you know that others feel welcomed, yeah, matter who they are.

Stuart Murray 7:04

Yeah. Stanley, you you mentioned that you came from Malaysia, yes, yes to Canada. And then you just mentioned something about, you know, getting indoctrinated or learning about the culture of Canada. Is there anything that when you were in that learning process that surprised you, that you thought about Canada before you got here, and then once you arrived here, you sort of thought from a cultural standpoint, it's how I imagined it, or I thought it might be different. And here's why.

Stanley Amaladas 7:35

You know, in Malaysia, we had the embassy, up the Canadian Embassy and the face of Canada at that time, and now I'm talking in the 70s. I was expecting to see a red haired, white gentleman, or someone you know, on logs, logging. That was the image I had, however, there was another story that I was attracted to in Canada. For Canada is the Canada priced itself at that time to being a peacemaker, and I was very intrigued by that now. So what I came here, they were definitely not loggers or red haired and white faces, but it was a diversity of people here, you know. And I mean diversity in not in the diversity as we experience it today. But, you know, the folks at ours are Polish Ukrainian Germans, and they're not all the same, you know, they're more than their color, but I must tell you that I'll share a story, a story of me making the decision to become a Canadian citizen. You know, it was, you know, I met my my dear wife, Miriam, here at the college, and we've been married now 45 years. Congratulations, yeah, so it's, it's, thank the Lord for keeping us together 45 years to the same person, of course, right?

Stuart Murray 9:10

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, yes, indeed. And

Stanley Amaladas 9:13

what was unexpected was when I went in for my Canadian interview, and it's not a pleasant story, because a day before the interview, I was helping my friends move in. This was in Toronto, the Bonners, the Irish and they said to me, Oh, your interviews tomorrow. Did you read the book? And I said, What book? It's a book that he gave you. So I went home and I read the book over and over, and I said I was so ready. I said, Well, bring it on. But prior coming to coming to that interview, I needed to go to the Canadian Department of Immigration and they would process. Process, and they determined that I was one day short for qualifying for this interview. You know, however, in her wisdom, she said, Look, by the time you get to the interview will be three or four months down the road, so let's not worry about that date. So off we went. So the date of the interview. Here I am. I arrive at around nine o'clock for the interview at 930 and so here's what was unexpected. While waiting, I heard this gentleman coming out of his room screaming, these people fail. These people fail. And you know, the mother and was in tears. A father was distraught, and the two little children was kind of wondering what the heck's going on. And I said to myself, oh my goodness, what happened here? I sure hope I don't get this fella as my interview judge or citizenship interview judge, and but sure enough, I got him, and he came, came out the door, and Mr. Amala, Amala, Amala something, and he couldn't pronounce my name, and any point with his finger, you know, told me, you know, is, is to come in to his office. And so I, I was, remember so clearly I was standing at the door, just at the entrance of his office, and he had gone around the desk of his desk, and he just pointed his finger from where he was standing, and he said, or asked, Why are you people so pushy? And I thought what I looked around. I tried to figure, try to figure out, did I bring a group of people with me, and who are the you people that he was talking about? And I said, I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean. And he says, Well, you come in here and sit down, and I'll tell you in that toning. And then he pointed to this paper and said, You had one more day. He said, Oh, you've had one more day before. You know you qualify. So I explained to him what happened at that instance, and he said to me, who was in power at that time? And I asked, Do you mean politically? Who's in power? He says, Yes, and I was quite clear. It's in the book that I read the night before. I said, Well, it was the liberals, the liberals, Damn bastards. And I thought, oh my goodness, what is this? You talk about something that's unexpected. And there it was. And it it got worse from there, you know, Trudeau, homosexual, oh, Gandhi, homosexual. Where are you born? I said, Malaysia. Ah, Sukarno, he said. And I said, I'm sorry, but Sukarno is in Indonesia. Yeah, same thing, he said. And I then I asked him. He asked me, what do you do when you go when you go to school? And I said, York University. York University, communist and, you know, Stuart. It got so ridiculous that I thought myself, well, I'm dealing with a mad man totally my mind, yeah, and so I thought, I just sit back, and I said, you know, what about you? I said, Is there something about, did you go to school in in at York University, thinking he might have he says, No. He says, I'm from Hungary. The Russians came, and I was never given an opportunity to go to school. So there he was. I mean, I kind of felt his pain, but was no reason for him to be using his position of power in that way. I but I also understood that anger, you know, as I kept it in place. And so finally, you know, he kind of started signing things off. And then he said, Well, you come back on this date for the swearing in, you know? But he had not asked me anything about

Unknown Speaker 14:10

nothing in the book. Hey, nothing in the book.

Stanley Amaladas 14:13

Yeah, oh yes, yes. Another time he pointed to a picture. There were three gentlemen in that picture, and he said, Well, you know who this is. He said, Well, Said, looks like, That's Brian Mulroney, our prime minister, and that's in the book. And you know, it looks like, no, no, the person next to him, I said, Well, that looks like, you know, Minister Wilson. He was the finance minister. No, no, no. Who's in the middle? And it was him. And he said, No, without me, they would not get their votes right right away. I thought, Okay, this man is appointed here and so on and so forth. But he wasn't that power. So finally, he said, you come back and do the swearing. I said, I had to ask. I said, Look, I just need to ask you. I said, What do you think? Why do you think I will make a good kidney? Canadian to receive the citizenship. He point. He started again, pointing his finger at me. He says, I know you. He said, You hate communists. So he gave me a definition of what it means to be a Canadian Stan. I am a Canadian, and I hate communist. You know it, it was the now, that experience, you know, to rest that story, that story came out, and Val Maroney removed him from that role. And so it kind of really, this was after the charter of of rights and freedom, right, you know? And in that role, in that position, where I was seeking Canadian citizenship, and, yes, I was also a permanent president, I did not, I felt, what's in the charter of rights being violated? You know? What just being violated and and so that kind of made me think about rights and freedoms a little differently, and I guess this is what we want to kind of talk about. It is wonderful, and we are privileged as Canadians to have this Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It is possible because we are a nation state that protects all its citizens, including permanent residents, right? Many countries don't have that luxury, and some in our own country, historically, have suffered not being protected in that way. So we have a painful history, without a doubt, Canada, and this man is just an iota of what that experience could look like if one is in a position of power. And one thing that I asked myself was, we have human rights here. We have in the charter, our freedoms. And what I found lacking in this one person as that's, I told you that story was, what was his responsibility in protecting others? You know, even though we have that rights and responsibilities, what is our responsibility as individuals and as a collective? What is our responsibility for taking care of of other people as people, first recognizing them as people, right and not as tools to be used for whatever we want them to do. What do we do to care for their well being? That is our responsibility now, that responsibility is not written in the charter that legalistically. It's their legal framework, but responsibility goes somewhere else. Where do we take responsibility? Who do we risk? Who are we responsible to? And it is in that taking responsibility that I think we give each other the opportunity to hear, to tell our stories, to to honor the stories that are being told, and at the same time not being reduced to silence. We cannot be paralyzed. And so when you ask me to be on, on board with this interview, I was really thinking about that, you know. And I believe Victoria has rights and responsibilities, you know, we have rights and freedoms. What called for me, and this is my thinking in this role is, is the director of tomorrow Institute, is like, what is our responsibility, to our people, to all to our students, to our faculty, to to all persons that walk in here, and all persons that walk outside here, right? Yeah, what is responsibility? Yeah,

Stuart Murray 19:04

Sandy, let me ask you a couple of questions. Thank you for sharing that story. It's a little alarming, you know, I mean, and you think about when it happened years ago, it's it's irrelevant. You know that it happened a long time ago, but there's something quite eerie about what you just talked about that maybe if you think about things that are happening in 2025 south of the border, you know, those issues become very much the empowerment of an individual who, this particular individual took that to an incredibly, you know, wrongful area, but you know, had the ability to, you know, kind of put You on the other side of a desk, and kind of lecture to you. And I want to talk about rights and responsibilities, Stanley, but, but you know, just, I'd love to get your thoughts on, you know, you were faced with a man who indicated that he'd come from a communist country, a Hungarian and sort of. Given this sort of sense that, you know, he's here in this country, Canada, because of freedom and opportunity, and yet he took a role of almost becoming a dictator that he escaped from in Hungary to use that power on you as somebody he never knew, somebody didn't know. And I'm always fascinated why people who have suffered, you know, under whether it's been dictators or whatever it may be, from a human rights perspective, why? Why he wouldn't have reached across the table and embraced you and said, You know, I understand what, why you want to come here. I understand, you know, what I've been through. I understand what you may have been through and why you're trying to find a chance of hope and opportunity in Canada, but chose a totally different path, and I wondered if you could make a comment in your mind, why that might be sometimes

Stanley Amaladas 20:55

you want to leave these things to the psychologist. I can only tell you from the perspective of what I heard and saw, what I saw in the man face and tone was anger. What I saw in that face and tone was being really troubled. I could have different ways in which you you can respond to anger. If that is true, there is a sense of trauma I could sense, you know, as he told me about how the Russians were there and they prevented him from going to university, you could hear it in that tone of anger just coming out. You know, strangely, what I felt compassion for him, so I wanted to find a way of talking with him, but at the same time knowing in that room, at that particular time, the context was such that, you know, he was the judge, and I happened to be the applicant, so I didn't want, I needed to find a way to talk to him, but I knew I couldn't, because He was not there to listen, right? I asked two questions. That's all I asked in that whole thing. I was I did not give him a response to his comments, but I asked him to quit. One, I asked him about his story, like, what is it, you know? And he told me that story, yes, yeah, and I think perhaps that's I did not give him permission to paralyze my voice. You know, people come into the world, they do what they do, and we see what's happening. So how do we speak to a tyrant, but in a way that is not tyrannical, right? Yeah, that is our responsibility that's going with this. Right? We have a tyrant. We have a dictatorial kind of a personality there. But how do we speak to him or her, for that matter, in a manner that is not tyrannical or dictatorial, right? It's simply too easy, yeah, you know. And this is where I'm reminded of Michelle Obama. When they go low, you go high, right? And that's a tough place to be, yes, especially when someone's just beating you over the head. I asked him. The next question I asked him is, what makes you think that I'll be a good Canadian? Sometimes in conversations like that, the best we can do is just open ourselves to being curious, right? Yeah, you know, and not to focus on why is this man the way he is, yeah, or challenging that, because it's not going to go anywhere, yeah, position of power, yeah. Assume themselves with that power, yeah, they do more damage than good. And this is what I learned in my field, where I know I Leadership Studies, is what way I kind of focus my attention, and I know one thing as and as evidence for this is that the power to lead is the power to mislead, and the power To mislead is the power to destroy. And so leadership is, you know, we can't take it lightly. And we see this happening today. You know, where someone is in a position of leadership and using it to destroy, using it to manipulate. And therein, I think, lies what I'm asking about or inquiring about is, what is my responsibility in relation to citizens in our own country, for example, or others who choose to be times, right? How do I converse with them? Yeah? Right, yeah, yeah. And how do I be a welcoming presence? Yeah? In that. It's, it's, and I think dialog, conversation gives us an opportunity, but coming into the conversation, not with answers, right? But coming into that conversation with a sense of curiosity. You know, I want to understand, right? And in that perhaps we can start to break it down. Now, I'm not assuming that this is what we want to do with the person down south, but I think, you know, Prime Minister Carney did a wonderful job, you know, being clear as what Canada is about and what it's not about, right? It is safe, yeah, and it's quite clear. But now, and I think he did not give in to the tyranny that was faced with, right and I think that is huge lesson to be learned.

Stuart Murray 25:46

Yeah, yeah. No, no. Thanks for that, Stanley, you know, I want to just sort of explore this notion about rights and responsibilities, which you've touched on, you know, you and I shared a little bit about this when we when we broke bread at breakfast. And, you know, one of the things I you know, as you know, I'm no human rights expert. I was very blessed when I was at the inaugural president, CEO of the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, to be surrounded by some incredible people, some passionate experts, incredible people that that taught me a lot, and I think did amazing job of making that museum as relevant as it is, but one of the things that occurred to me standing I'd love your thoughts, is that, you know, there is the Charter of Human Rights and Freedoms. And you know, the issue that always comes out is people talk about human and the word behind human is rights, so it's always sort of codified in the sense of human rights, and I understand that, but I wonder, I always get a sense that it never mentions human beings. It never mentions people. And so, you know, when you talk about human rights, and people you know stand up and say, I have a right for the following, and I have a right for this, and I have a right for that, and I'm not saying the wrong I'm saying that they are correct in what they're saying. But I think that's where a lot of times people sort of say, but where's the responsibility in your in your passion for your rights?

Stanley Amaladas 27:11

But you know, the charter is, if you look at it, it's a legal document, so you have a legalistic orientation to human rights and so and what? Where do human right lawyers get involved? They get involved in human rights are violated and rightfully so. That's where they get so we talk about human being. I think human dignity, human respect. How do I be with you in a manner that you and I see each other and treat each other with dignity and with respect. And it becomes becomes very difficult, or maybe the problem becomes escalated, is that if one of us feel that my rights have really been violated, or that I have not and I think what is coming out of that is not so much that the rights have been violated, the experience of that is such that I have been treated in a manner that has been dehumanized, that's been dehumanizing, degrading, and so in the middle of that situation, then I need to kind of As the one that listens to the story is, what is my responsibility here? You know, what can What? What? What do you want from me? You know, is in a manner that respects you for who you are, in spite of what has happened, I was not a part of that pain, and yet I am in the middle of that pain, and I think my owner there's a wonderful lady by the name of Hannah Arendt. And she writes some many things, the origin of totalitarianism and E Jerusalem. And in one of her writings, it talks about men in darkness. And she says, you know, we are privileged to to as folks that came after all the wrongs, for example, to enjoy the abundance of what we have today. And by virtue of enjoying the abundance, we too must accept the liability of what has occurred, right? We can't just take one without the other, and so it places us in the mode of, yes, I might not have been an actor in the past history, but yet I am a recipient of all that has that I've inherited because of past history. So now it's my turn to also say, what is I need. I cannot escape the liabilities that come with that. So how can I talk with you? You know, and I think we can't just go from one to the other. There's no straight road. To responsibility. I think part of our responsibility is I need first to open the door to understanding your pain, what what has been violated here, and then, what can we both do to help us both live in a manner that respects our human dignity. It doesn't make sense to it, you know,

Stuart Murray 30:23

it does Sandy. I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's not a, sort of a simple construct, right? I mean, it has, you know, there's so many elements to it, and, you know, but, but I really appreciate, you know, the way that you're sort of trying to frame it. Because, you know, again, a lot of times conversations when you talk about, you know, looking at being inquisitive, or looking at a sense of treating people with dignity or respect, or however that may be. You know, Stanley, a lot of times people are framing their conversations about who's right and who's wrong, as opposed to, you know, are we are? Can we not go down that path but look and say that there's differences clearly in the way that we're approaching something, but to say who's right and who's wrong? I mean, that's a dead end conversation. So from your experience, how would you back that up and try to reframe it? Maybe I

Stanley Amaladas 31:17

could offer you another story as a way of reframing. And it's, it's not my story. It's a follow by the name of Heinz von Forrester. And you know, he is in the world of the second order, cybernetics and all that wonderful stuff. And I read in one of his conference presentations, he, he, he shared that a story about a a boy who was living in between an Arab neighborhood and and a Jewish neighborhood, and what divided these two neighborhoods was a street that ran in between. Now, growing up as a boy, he would straddle on both sides. He would be playing with people on one side of the street, playing with folks on the other side of the street, talking to one, talking to the other, you know, and just being a boy, a child, right? And that boy, when, when someone asked him, says, Oh, so you play with both people on both sides? He says, Yes. He says, so. So he told me. He said, who's right? Who's wrong, because of all the tensions that exist? And the little boy answered, they're both right, you know. And the man answered, well, surely that cannot be. He says, so one has to be right and one has to be wrong, you know. And the boy said, No, the question is not right or wrong, and the problem is not who's right or who's wrong. The problem is this is trust. It's trust. Trust has been betrayed, right? So, so the conversation needs to occur at another level, not at the level of right and wrong, but the level of, how have we betrayed you? How have I felt betrayed by you? And I felt a sense of betrayal when I was in the middle of that conversation with that particular citizenship, you know, it was a real betrayal of trust. He was put in a position of trust, you know, but he he betrayed that trust by doing what he did. Now take that to a larger level, and you can see, right? So as so I, I'd encourage everyone you know listening in to kind of say, maybe it's we've been asking the wrong question, who's right, who's wrong? That is the wrong question our for the sake of human dignity and for the sake of human respect, let's talk about

Unknown Speaker 33:47

trust.

Stanley Amaladas 33:50

And what do I what do I need from you, and what do you need from me? Right? And in order that I trust you or you trust me, I need to be with you in a manner that is worthy of your trust, and so we built right that's where I would

Stuart Murray 34:09

start. Yeah, no. Thanks for sharing. That's great. Stanley. Appreciate that. Listen, I love the conversation, but there's a couple of things that I need to ask of you, just to sort of get a sense from you. You you taking the role as director of the moral Institute for Peace and Justice at Saint Paul's College. A lot of people would know that name. Not everybody had the opportunity to meet Arthur moral. What was your first impression when you met Arthur moral? Well,

Stanley Amaladas 34:37

to me, honestly, I met the man once to, you know, he was at a reception here, what I what I saw was a man who kind of shied away from limelight. You know, he was a shy person. He he was talking to people very soft in his, you know, the best I can share with. You Stuart on that is the stories that I've heard about tomorrow. But I have not met him. I've had the privilege very recently to meet two of his daughters who came in from the Yukon and and one from Yukon and the other some salt.

Speaker 1 35:16

Salt on the West Coast, that's right,

Stanley Amaladas 35:20

salt Island, is it? Salt Springs. Salt Springs was a joy to meet with them. And you know, they were this. Can you can feel that, that the sense of passion and compassion in their hearts, and I'm thinking, well, that's they got it from their dad, right? And you could feel that. But what I do know this is from what I'm reading, not from knowing him. I mean, he talked about how Winnipeg kind of evolved over the years. I mean, he told in his story about, you know, there was only a limited number of folks from the Judaic faith were accepted into medicine, and he talked about how the Catholics were treated in Winnipeg, and he had a lot of many of these very divisive situations conditions, right? But yet he said Winnipeg evolved. And you know, today, at that time, the cmhr was just about to become a reality in 2010 but what struck him most, and what this was his vision, that he envisioned Winnipeg as being a cultural center for hope, and he used that example his experience at the University of Winnipeg was really one of Human Interaction, that one of reasonable conversation, or conversations based on reason. University of Manitoba became a place where people could converse with each other with reason, and today, there is a bit of a huge tension. You can see, you know what's especially what's happening around the world. So I think as far as I'm here, I'm very determined to tell you the truth. Says, how, what can I do to help Arthur Morrows vision of Winnipeg being a cultural center for hope to be a reality here, and what kind of conversations do we need to effort ourselves such that hope is not just wishful thinking, that we can actually work on something to make our world the world that we want it to be in a manner that respects our dignity and our respect for each other, right? That's where I'd go with that. Yeah,

Stuart Murray 37:38

you know, I did. Stanley had a great chance to spend time with, with Mr. Morrow, having lots of discussion. We used to talk a lot about the, you know, kind of the construct of of peace and justice and human rights, you know, you how do they fit together? Which is, you know, kind of, we sort of joked and said, Which came first, you know, which is the element of first that, I mean, it was more, more, in a way, of humor, to sort of just go through a conversation, but, you know, I would say that, you know, from what I I've heard you, and I've listened to you not just on this podcast, but through a couple of meetings that we've had, and certainly when we broke bread, you know, you Have a genuine passion for for what you're doing, and you have some really interesting lived experience to share. And I think some of those, those are the elements that I think that allow people to get a sense of understanding when you speak. You know, you talked a little bit about the mind and the heart. I think you have an ability Stanley to speak with both. And I think that allows you as a to be a genuine person, to continue kind of the the journey that you're on. And so, you know, I just want to say thank you for finding some time for this conversation. There'll be many, many more. But I just wanted to say thank you for for for sharing this this time on humans, on rights with me, yeah,

Stanley Amaladas 39:01

thank you, Stuart, and I'm glad you were persistent to making this happen, so I hope I've not violated anything that that you've set out for and and I want to encourage all of us as and your listeners to continue to expect lights of illumination in the midst of our darkness. And it's not going to come from theories or big ideas. It's going to come from people who treat people as people. Thank you,

Stuart Murray 39:31

sir on that note. Dr Stanley amaladis, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Bye for now.

Matt Cundill 39:37

Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to humanrightshub.ca. Produced into. Distributed by the sound off media company the.