Janet James: Leadership, Economic Equity, and the Work Nobody Sees

For our second Black History Month episode, we're going beyond celebration and into accountability. Stuart Murray sits down with Janet James, Edmonton entrepreneur and leadership strategist, whose journey from growing up as one of the only Black families in Lancashire, England to becoming a corporate executive and business owner is both a personal story of resilience and a lens on who gets access to power, capital, and opportunity.

Janet is the founder of Janet James Growth Leadership, and has been involved with the National Black Coalition of Canada, Black History Manitoba, and leadership events for Indigenous youth — work that reflects her belief that real progress is about closing gaps, not checking boxes.

We're talking:

• Why representation alone isn't enough, and what economic equity actually looks like in practice

• The concept of "dark work" — the inner work nobody sees that makes everything else possible

• How the word "woke" got weaponized, and what it actually means to the people who've always used it

• What performative allyship looks like up close, and how to redirect it without coming from a place of anger

Janet's path took her from suppressing her identity in an almost entirely white town in England, to finding community and courage in Edmonton, to rising through corporate ranks and eventually building her own business. Along the way, she ran DEI programs, spoke publicly about racism at a time when she feared it would cost her her job, and led leadership training for Indigenous youth in Winnipeg — drawing the through-line between different communities' shared experiences of being told what they can't do.

As Janet puts it: "In order to grow yourself, you must know yourself first."

Janet James' Website

Episode Transcript:

Stuart Murray 0:00

Recording this Black History Month, humans on rights goes beyond celebration and into accountability. Today, we're joined by Edmonton entrepreneur and leadership strategist Jana James. Her journey from corporate executive to business owner is a story of resilience, but it's also a lens on who gets access to power, capital and opportunity. As a black woman, navigating leadership space is not always built with her in mind, Janet challenges us to ask, is representation enough or is a true human rights progress measured by who actually holds influence, wealth and voice? On that basis. Janet, James, welcome to humans on rights.

Unknown Speaker 0:44

Thank you very much, Stuart, I appreciate being in this space.

Stuart Murray 0:47

So Janet, just for the listeners, if you don't mind, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself a little bit and maybe talk about some of the things you're currently working on, and then we can dive into our conversation. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:00

And thank you for the opportunity. So my name is Janet James. I own and operate a business called Janet James, growth, leadership. I started that last year. However, I've been speaking for probably over the last 25 years on, you know, different platforms to be able to not only work in a business mind, but also to be able to help other people. I've been involved with, you know, NBCC, which is the National Black coalition of Canada. When I was in in Winnipeg, I lived in Winnipeg for six years, and I was also involved in the black history Manitoba, where I really got a better understanding of what I could do in the community and how we could work together to really work on where we are right now, where's the gap from, where we're coming from, and where do we want to go? So for example, for the Edmonton one, it is, live it, speak it, do it. And that was their mantra for this year, which has placed so much responsibility on all of us to be involved in Black History Month, and not as a one day a year, but every day of the year, right?

Stuart Murray 2:06

And I, you know, I think that the fact that you have sort of come through the corporate world, Janet and has successfully started as an entrepreneur, your own business, and now you go out and you speak about it. I know you were in Manitoba speaking to Black History Month, Black History Manitoba. What did you talk about there?

Speaker 1 2:26

You know, I talked about our history and being able to have the conversations, not only first and foremost, with ourselves, right? It's okay if we don't understand. I know a lot about the history, but the the idea is to learn it. Once you're able to learn it, then you can speak it. And you know, I was able to speak about very prominent people that have led us more so in the in the Winnipeg side, Manitoba side, and to where we are right now and then. How do we show up? Are we still in fear of talking about our black history, or are we leaders in talking about our black history, and because it starts with us, we talk about, are we then going to our families? Are we then going to our friends? Are we then going to our workplace, being able to make sure that, you know, everybody feels comfortable and appreciating the allies and appreciating the people that stand with us, as opposed to oppose, you know, as opposed to against us? Yes, yeah, no,

Stuart Murray 3:23

I, and I'm sure, you know, just knowing some of the folks that are involved in black history, Manitoba, who put on black history month, you know, I've, I've watched over the years, Janet, how that community, and, you know, that's the thing always for me. And I've been reminded for through certain people that, you know, that community is also very broad. You know, the black community is, is, is very, very broad and diverse in its own sort of views and how things work. So, you know, there's so much to learn about our history, and particularly, you know, when you think about you're in Edmonton, but we talk about Manitoba, and I know that one of the areas that I would love to get your take on Janet is is, you know, the conversations that have gone from inclusion and and trying to make people feel that they have an inclusion in certain spaces, but you know, sometimes that just comes up as kind of, I'll just say diversity talk, and I'll put that in sort of air quotes, if you will. Can you sort of talk about, how do we move from those conversations into actual some of the things that you personally have experienced, which is real economic equity?

Speaker 1 4:37

That's a great question. You know, I can tell you, and everybody's going to experience this you know differently depend on what profession they're in and what their views are. But I will start off by saying it's still to this day, is not easy, and acknowledging the people that you know, like myself, that we've been able to move forward with how. Mean conversations that are real, not superficial, but are real. So when somebody's, you know, say something because of a bias, you know, we're able to call it out right away and look at, you know, in every company, what are you doing to change and be more inclusive? One of the things that I had the opportunity to be able to do in Winnipeg was to work with First Nations when I first came there. And, you know, I'm going to be really blunt and honest, right, when I was moving to Winnipeg from Edmonton, many people had said to me, you know, there's a lot of Indians that live there, and I didn't understand either language or, you know what that meant. And for me, when I went there and I saw disparity, I saw a difference, I saw a gap, I was compelled to be able to work on, how do we make it better? And that's the same thing within our you know, the stories that I worked in. But conversations need to happen. They don't stop at any time. Stuart, it's something that you know when you're brave enough, I'm going to say, when you've got the courage to be able to have those conversations, and you see the impact from that. That's where you see that, you know, we're not forgetting our responsibility as a human to be able to move forward with those conversations, as difficult as they may be. And it's not just black people, it's people of color, it's it's, you know, it's everyone, and making sure that, you know, we're educating ourselves, right? It's not my job to fix the disparity that goes on with blacks, but it's my job to make sure that I'm educated enough to know about my history so that I can help other people. And I think you know from from that you know that builds leadership in communities, and leadership is when you are open enough to be able to look at, what can we do to make it better? What can we do when it comes to equity? What can we do when it comes to number one, having those conversations in the first place they're uncomfortable. But getting getting used to being uncomfortable in conversations is what moves us forward.

Stuart Murray 7:04

So Janet, on that basis, you know, the I just always go back to, sort of the George Floyd incident that kind of woke up so many people with the understanding that, and when I talked to a lot of my friends in the black community, of course, it was a reminder this just didn't happen. I mean, this has been going on for for decades, for for longer than that. And so now all of a sudden, you get this sense that people are aware of some of the challenges and some of the incredible, the racism, they just the blatant racist tactics that are out there. And you know, so there's two things I'd love to explore with you. One is that there was so many people that, you know, kind of, and I'll just sort of say white people that looked at and say, Okay, I want to be an ally, so I'm going to black out my Instagram account for a day, or I'm going to do something. And then, you know, you realize talking to people who in the same way that you are helping to educate people. Janet, I had people. I didn't do that, by the way. I don't want to, I don't want to put myself out there, but I just want to make an example of where somebody would say, that's pretty performative. And, you know, you're starting to learn different elements of language, of saying, you know, you know, if somebody, for example, that you knew that was wanting to be an ally, and they did something that was that was just blatantly kind of performative, not probably out of ignorance, but just trying to help, what advice would you give to that person? I mean, how would you tell that person, because they honestly want to be an ally, but they're failing at it. Yeah, I've

Speaker 1 8:44

lived with that my whole life. And I think, you know, one of the things Stuart is you take a pause so you don't come from a place of anger, you come from a place of understanding. And you know, if that were me, which I've done many times, is I would say, you know, Can Can we, can we just go back to that? Can we just unpack that a minute? Like, what did you mean by that? Just so that I understand. And then I would go from, from having that clarity, and then going to, may I suggest something different, because this is how it feels to me. So they need to understand, you know, even though the intent was good, right? We need to understand that. You know, it doesn't come across. It doesn't feel the same way in the heart. So then you educate them on that, so that they have a better understanding. And a lot of people right away, well, oh, my god, I'm so sorry. No, no, it's okay. It's not about apologizing. It's about coming closer and closing the gap so that we're on a better understanding. And you know, to your point of going back to that era with George Floyd, I was in Winnipeg. I did the walk in Winnipeg, okay, right. We walked to the Human Rights Museum. And gotta tell you, I mean, I felt, as soon as you said that, I. Else, you know, a little choke in my heart and and I had allies. I had people that understood. Had people that wanted to walk alongside, even if they didn't understand, they they recognized that this was important. So, for example, Stuart, if it was important to you, then it would be important to me. So let's walk together. I remember not speaking to anyone. I was No, and we, we finished off at the Human Rights Museum. And that's when the emotions really came, you know, a lot deeper. And then to be able to stand on those steps and look at the flood crowd of people that were saying yes, was incredible. And I think that's that's a moment where you now know that your job, my job, was to now educate right and to forgive Right. And, you know, I did the same thing with my children. I explained the same things with my children so that they understood that, you know, people don't understand what's the right thing to say. People are scared to say something. But what I can tell you is, you know, couple days after that, I'm walking on the street and Caucasian people are coming up to me and looking at me right in the face and going, hello, right? Yeah. I mean, you know what, it's, it's an it's a step, right? And you can't, you can't criticize that you you have to humble yourself and just recognize them for staking it, taking a step. And it was, it was, for me, it was just wow, especially when they're with their children, you know, you're trying to teach your children, and I believe in each one, teach one. Yeah. So it won't end. It'll be for the rest of our lives, where we will continue to show up. And when we show up, it's making sure that, you know, we're doing the work as

Stuart Murray 11:43

well, right? You know, I, you mentioned, ending up at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights and that walk Janet. And you know, one of the things that I was, you know, very fortunate to have very strong black leadership in the Canadian Museum for Human Rights Under Angela Cassie, an extraordinary person who has done great, great work, and, you know, not only in our community, but but across the nation. And so, you know, I that was a big moment that that time and and, you know, I've had this kind of conversation. This is just going to pivot just a little bit, Janet, but, you know, I know that that one of the things that came out of that was when somebody wrote on the side of the museum, you know, is this the kind of museum you want with a question mark? And it was sort of graffiti like and, of course, the natural reaction, and this is where, you know, you have to always sort of just sort of check yourself for a moment. The natural reaction is defacing. Let's get rid of that. The other thought would have been, what if we put plexiglass around that to protect it, because it's really another form of protest about what they're asking, questions they're asking, and, you know, right on the museum itself. I mean, it's a bit of a challenge to the museum. Are you going to be able to deliver what people would like this museum to be. So, you know, it was a very, very kind of powerful statement, and that got erased, if you will. And, you know, some people say, Yeah, but it was graffiti. And, I mean, you know, that's where the conversations, I think, don't sort of really sort of find some, some opportunity to sort of breathe and grow a bit, you know, just to kind of just decide that, no, no, let's just get rid of it, because it's quote, unquote, but so So Janet, just on on that. It's interesting that you were on that, on that March. You know, one of the things I would love to get from you, your thoughts around the term woke, and how you tie that into what you talk about with respect to leadership and and I'll just preface it by saying that I think that the word woke has become weaponized, as I had this conversation with Nadia on the podcast Janet, where a number of people that I know in the black community, when we got that gone into that conversation, they would say that the word woke was used when people were on the chain gangs and they were communicating with one another, and it was their way of just saying at the end of it, when they said goodbye, it was like, stay woke. Be aware. Always. Be mindful of what's happening. Keep in touch. What are we doing? And all of a sudden it's become one of these things, oh, wokeism is, you know, tied into so many things that, frankly, don't have a lot of positive elements to them. So, you know, please help me through that.

Speaker 1 14:30

Yeah, you know, that goes back to, you know, my dad, you know, saying to me, Well, you know, just, you just leave it. Don't, don't, get upset, you know. You just have to just, you know, just let it go. And I remember stopping and looking at him saying, no, no, not anymore, you know. And when you look at, you know, a simple word, it boils down to interpretation. Mm. It boils down to, you know, the intelligence level of where somebody either misunderstands that word or it's a word that we use because we know that we are aware, right? It's paying attention to the surroundings. It's paying attention to to the conversations, and not necessarily to come, like I said, from an anger, but to come from a place where, how do we move forward from this? How do we educate one simple word, and that's not woke, is not the only one, but I think you know, it's about choice as well. Yeah, because you have, you have the choice to be able to say, you know, no, that's not the way that we interpret it. So it's a, you know, obviously, you know, a way to also educate. And it's not a dismissive word, neither it's a word that stands strength because of history and because of, you know, wanting to see the change. But it's like what is spoken and what is unspoken. For me. If somebody said to me, is that a is that an unspoken word to you? I go, No, it's an educational word for me, right, right? So that we can advance further with a level of intelligence that makes us more confident in being able to explain and to be able to even explain when people see it as a negative as well. I think that's also important. Yeah, that's a great question.

Stuart Murray 16:23

Sticks to it, yeah. So, Janet, you know when I, when I looked at your your your history, and what you've done through the corporate world, and again, just reminding our listeners that you're now are an entrepreneur. You're doing your own thing on leadership and talking a lot about that, what, where in your career, Janet, did you decide that, I don't know if it's you know, as you kind of said to your father, not anymore. Enough is enough. Where did you decide in your career journey that there were spaces that you were just not going to let or gaps, maybe that you were just not going to let go by and, you know, tying that into sort of why you talk about the strength and leadership and overcoming fear,

Speaker 1 17:07

you know? I so I was raised a little bit of a backstory. I was raised in London, England, and we moved to Lancashire at a very young age. I was six years old. When we moved to Lancashire, there was nobody that looked like me. And when you went to the school, you know, it was tough, because you there's no representation. By the time I left England. So, you know, I was 15 when I left, there was three families. We were one of three families in this community, and there was no room like you lose your identity, you learn to suppress, right? And then I come to Canada, Edmonton, and we see people like me. I see people that talk like me. I see representation. So you learn courage, and you learn the ability to see what is possible, as opposed to seeing nothing possible from when I was in my younger years. And even then, you know, you still, you still suppressed everything, because that's how we were raised, and I was involved in the black community. So I was able to, you know, get some more understanding, get some training, being able to look at, you know, what does a community of not only black history month, but a black community represent? How do we show up? And what can we do to to continue to educate and look at what is possible. There was a stereotype of what black women did you either were a nurse or you were a cleaner. Same thing for, you know, for black men. So how do you change that? And that's education, of course. So I went to, you know, I went to university. I took courses. I took as many courses I possibly could so that I would feel like I can represent for other people. And that's a big you know, that's a big task to take on, because you never know what you can do. But as I started off in in this corporation, I started off at the bottom, and continue to grow in different levels, but not because I was trying to be seen, but because I believe that there was a space for us as well, and that means that, you know, you take on a role of responsibility to not only educate, you know, our peers, but to educate everyone. I was involved in when dei first came out, I was involved in Dei. I was involved in different platforms, where I was given, you know, so grateful for that, but I was given the space to be able to talk and to be able to help people understand, you know, what we need to do. And there's a lot of first in that, when you see women of color, not just black women, but women of color, right? That start to have roles that we never thought. If you would have said to me, you know, 20 years ago, hey, Janet, do you know that you're going to be a district manager? You know that you're going to be this? You know, no, an entrepreneur? No, right? Like my, my dad didn't see that like he, he didn't think like, Yeah, you should be thinking about having your own business. No. Oh, those weren't conversations that we had in our household. Those were conversations that I had with people that were on the same level of me or even higher than me that would say, why not? Yes, you can. And once you start changing that mindset, then that's when you start to see growth happen in many spaces. And now, like, you know, I just opened up for Edmonton, the launch of Black History Month, and the young people that were in that room, that have courage, that have dreams, that want to go somewhere, that want to do something, that's who we are responsible for, giving them the platform, making sure that they understand that they can move further than where we did right? It's not enough to say that, hey, I did this. That's not enough. It's now helping other people and showing them and leading them and educating them on what's available for them. And I see the same thing. You know, I was in Winnipeg last week, funny enough to it, and I was running a leadership event for indigenous people and to see these young people identity in in all of us is tough. It's hard because we have lies that that spoil our dreams based on what we were told we couldn't do you can't do this, you can't do that. You should do this, you should do that. And to be able to empower them to be comfortable in the space that they're in is, is equally just as important.

Stuart Murray 21:25

Yeah, you know that leadership piece, Janet, you know, I'd like to spend a bit of time talking about that, because, you know, we're surrounded with really great ideas, or we're surrounded by stories that that you know are there to motivate, but at some point, you know the notion, when you the word, you know, getting people the ability to feel comfortable, to speak truth, to power, you know, in a very you know, you look at that statement and you go, yeah, I mean, that's so important. And yeah, we have to do that. But then put it into reality, bring it into life, bring it into the real world. And, you know, it's, it's a bit of a flippant kind of thing to say to somebody, well, you know, we just have to learn to speak truth to power. It's like, whoa, stop, right? Yes, like, I mean, come on. Like, you know, there's certain, there's certain people that you know they are the power. So yeah, they can sort of say, No, you gotta learn to speak to power. But you talk to people, and I would love you know, just from your personal experience, Janet through your life journey to where you are today, how did you how did you look at that statement, and how did you use it as a way to motivate yourself to be the success that you are today and the leader you are today.

Speaker 1 22:45

Thank you, Stuart for asking that. That's a heavy question, because there isn't a I'm going to say a right answer to that. It's work. It's, it's more work than having a job. It's, it's, it's recognizing that, you know, you're here for a purpose. I believe in God, so God put me here for a purpose, and that purpose, you know, gets distorted when other people have their their sayings or their misjudgments or their prejudice or their dislikes, and you know, to be able to unpack that, I think for myself, and I'm going to speak, you know, for my journey as myself. Because, you know, once you become a mother, the responsibility goes up even higher. And for me, I needed to do some inner work. So my outside of who I was, how people see me, did not represent who I was on the inside, the core of my being, of who I am and a gentleman by the name of Anthony trucks, he describes dark work. And dark work for me is when you do the work that nobody else gets to see. You may cry, you may struggle, you may work until you know 10 times more. And I grew up knowing that I had to work twice as hard in order to be recognized the same way as everybody else. So that dark work means that questioning your ability to do things taking action in the next step, we can write down goals, but if you don't have a growth plan to where you want to be and where you are right now and then, trying to work on that gap right? Everything else is going to take over and have you drift to all kinds of things that you you know shouldn't really be doing, and when I say shouldn't be really be doing, is it's like wasting time trying to be somebody that you're not and then having to start all over again to get back to the person that you know that you want to be. But then the question from that comes, Well, what if I don't know who I am? What if I don't know what I'm supposed to be, then it's education. It's education. I have read so many leadership books. I have been involved in so many different, you know, classes, and again, with each one, teach one. But the firm belief here is, in order to grow yourself, you must know yourself first. Yeah, and being able to unpack, you know, what's all of the history, the damage, the hurt that I feel, that nobody understands I need to work on that first right, work on yourself so that you can help other people. And I couldn't be where I am right now if I did not do that work. And being able to recognize. So I always say to people, can you look in the mirror and recognize yourself, or do you see somebody who's trying to be somebody for somebody else? Are you trying to be somebody when you go to work? Are you trying to be somebody when you're with a partner, all of those things that's that's hard work. Yeah, hard work to be able to recognize. But it's also a very proud moment when you're aligned on the inside as well as the outside, and it's the inside that speaks the truth through where you are that will help. And when I say outside, I just want to clarify that so people understand that means is that who people decide who you are, or who you show up, or how you show up for other people? Yeah.

Stuart Murray 26:00

So Janet, you know I love that explanation. Thank you for sharing that. Is there a moment can you bring down to a moment where that was something, where you recognized that you have that leadership, you've come you've closed that gap, you're able to quote and it may not be, I'm just using the term speak truth to power. There may be another way that you're looking at that. But was there a moment in your in your professional journey that you all of a sudden realized this, this is, you know, I know who I am, I know what I'm capable of, I know what I am responsible for. And I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to sort of trivialize it by calling it an aha moment, because that's really not where I want to go, but I want to try to sort of draw from you, your experience, where anybody who's listening going, I might have come close to that actually, you know, I may have learned something there.

Speaker 1 26:53

Yeah, so for me, it was a transformation moment. That's the word I'm going to use, because it truly that's a great one. Yeah, changed, changed my life, and it was people that were in my inner circle at work that saw something in me that I didn't quite see in myself, and they they helped me. They lifted me up. They reached out their hand and said, you know, let us help you. Not only did they do that, but they put me in different courses. They put me around having mentors. I believe in mentors. My whole life I've had mentors. I believe in mentors. And that's when that aha moment came for me, when I was like, I can actually do this. And I remember going to my boss and saying, you know, for another position, I'd like to do this. And he was like, right there alongside of me. Yes, what can I do? How can I help you? And that's the way it was. You know, it was for me to be able to grow, you know, through different positions in a company. And you know, all you have to do is have the strength to just ask for help. When you ask for help, and you know, it's genuine, then look what is there for you. But it also is like I talked about inner circle. The people in your inner circle need to be better than who you are. If people are in your inner circle that are the same as you you're not growing right, and you need to be able to grow right. So it means that you don't, you don't you're not jealous of these people, but you look at these people and they're willing to help you, and that's when that moment came for me. And I'll never, I'll never forget it, and I'm so grateful, you know, to the people that helped me, and they all know who they are, right? That helped me get to you know where I was, and to be able to look at, you know, even now in my business, my inner circle changed. When I moved back to Edmonton, my inner circle changed, and those, those I have, I say six people, those six people will continue to question what you're doing, why you're doing it this way, how you're doing it this way, and helping you to continue to move forward for a purpose greater than yourself.

Stuart Murray 28:53

Yeah, yeah, no. I really like your approach on that. And I think that's, again, somebody who's listening. I think it's important to get a sense from what you've done. You know you're sharing your story. I think thanks for being so personal on that, Janet, one of the things you mentioned about you, you believe in mentors. If a young black woman, a young black girl, came up to you and said, Janet, I'm looking for a mentor. Does it matter what race that mentor is?

Speaker 1 29:22

No, I don't care. When I say I don't care is because I'm a I'm a woman of color. How can I distinguish when I'm a woman of color? So for myself, it's my first immediate response would be, how can I serve you? What do you need? And I've had this happen. I speak at schools through, you know, NBCC speak at schools over Black History Month. And to your point, I had a lineup of young ladies, where can I get a mentor? How can I how can I get a mentor? What can I do? And the first thing I said to them was, how can I serve you? Be very clear on what you want. Mm. And then if I can't do it, I will find somebody else that can help you.

Stuart Murray 30:04

Yeah, yeah, no. Great answer. I, you know, I look at some of the, you know, the your kind of your life journey, Janet and I, you've touched on it a little bit. But maybe come back to this notion about, you're a black woman leader, you know, you have, I guess I just wonder, is there a way can you explain or share how race and gender have intersected in your professional career?

Speaker 1 30:35

Wow, I would say that, you know, I've been blessed enough to be able to move into different locations. So in different locations, you get to see that intersect in a good way and not also in a good way. And it is having the resilience to know that you belong in this space as well as anybody else and being able to speak to that. And sometimes you have the opportunity. And I remember the first time that I had a platform to be able to speak about racism, and you know, you're looking at biases, you're looking at allies, you're looking at all of that. I was scared. I thought was going to get fired because I spoke my truth right. And you know, I was reassured by the response and the action that came from that. And, you know, it's a journey. It definitely is a journey. And it's, it's something that each day, you want to make one step forward. And it's the one thing that I know for sure, Stuart, is you can't do this by yourself. Right? Right? I'm, you know, they used to say no man is an island. Well, you know, no man is definitely no Island, and you can't go anywhere by yourself. You need people to support you. You need people to believe in you. You need people to help you with the good, the bad and the ugly meaning you're telling your truth. And I've had that, and that's why, when I look at, you know, the steps that you just asked me about, it hasn't been the same in all of the locations that I have lived. Even when you travel abroad, it's the same thing, right? And, and, you know, there used to be this respect amongst black people where you're walking down the street, you don't know these people, you just nod and say, Hello. That's just what we do, right, right? You see the younger generation, and they don't do that. So you stop and you educate, right? So that we're all, you know, it's just a level of respect that we do because the journey has been long and still goes on.

Stuart Murray 32:33

Yeah, yeah, no. And I think it's, it's all about, you know, learning. And, you know, as they say, life stops when you stop learning, right? So you have to sort of keep going hard at that. I you know, one of the things Janet, when you when you look at your career, you've had challenges. We've talked a little bit about those challenges, but you want to share with you see progress, and if you see progress? Can you kind of put it into sort of a a sense of where we are with this kind of systemic, sort of racism that just is kind of part of who we are as a society?

Speaker 1 33:11

Yes, yeah, you know, again, that's a it's a great question, because it really anchors growth. And I wish I could tell you, Stuart, that it's been great, and it continues to open up. And you know, things are no, no. It's still hard work. It's still where you feel like you have the imposter syndrome if you get to a certain level, and you know, you don't sometimes you don't feel like you belong there. But not only that, it's still hard, because you're either labeled as a golden child, or, you know, it's gotta be, well, not smart enough, not didn't do the work, all of these different things that I believe, you know, still needs to change. And I have granddaughters now that I have conversations with my granddaughters, because they see it easy in junior high, they see it in kindergarten, which breaks my heart, yeah, because that change is the ignorance of other people that choose to just stay in the same space instead of being open to the culture that we have in our everyday lives around us. You know, wherever we live, there is culture, but some people flat refuse to want to understand the culture, and nothing I can do about that, right? There's choices. But you know, it doesn't mean that we stop. It doesn't mean that we stop. It doesn't mean that, you know, you continue to work in a community where you stand for everyone, as opposed to no one, right? And to be able to look at, how can we continue to impact people's lives? And that's why being involved, that's by doing what you do, Stuart, that's by doing what I do. That's why now everybody else, we're all trying to to educate in a way that people can. Reconnect without blame. Just reconnect, reconnect, show up in a different way that helps our youth, because our youth is who we need to make sure that they grow up knowing who they are, that they belong and everything every position is possible and being allowed in those spaces, and call it out when it's not and you know, one of the things that I say to my clients today is, when you're applying for a job stem what is their culture like? Does it speak to inclusion? Does it speak to equity? Just ask, and they're scared to ask that, because they think that, well, they're not going to hire me. Ask anyways, because if they're not going to hire you, because you spoke your truth and you shouldn't be working with them in the first place.

Stuart Murray 35:46

Yeah, yeah. Good point. Yeah, really. Good point. Janet, where? Where do you think we are with you? We talked earlier in the conversation about dei diversity, equity and inclusion. You know, again, it's one of those things where people kind of rush forward, and we have to have this, and we have to have that, and it's a title, and it's different things from your perspective as you see it, when you put on your your human rights lens, and you look at where we are with diversity, equity and inclusion today, how do you feel that that Canada as a country has embraced that, or Where are we at in terms of that journey?

Speaker 1 36:24

Another great question I'm going to say, do we embrace it, or do we change it right? Cuz embracing it can sometimes be a band aid. Let's get the check boxes for everything that we need to do right so that we are a company off? Or do we take the lens of the people that are in the companies, the people that you know want to work with us, and really peel back the onion and say, What are we doing right? What do we need to change? And what do we need to look at that is no longer serving everyone when we're looking at capacity, when we're looking at the amount of, you know, different races, different religions, everything that comes under our umbrella now, we have a responsibility, and what can we change so that they feel inclusive? And there's a lot of work to be, you know, still be done on that. You know, when I talk to companies now, and they're asking me, What can we do to change? Right? And I say the right thing is asking what you can do to change? Yeah, right, not to be involved, but, you know, but to change what we're doing. And it starts with the leader, because people leave businesses because of the leadership that is there that is no longer working. It's not the company, it's the leaders within the company and being able to look at, you know, what, what were they doing that we could now do better. Give more confidence, give more choices, give more of a future that is built inclusively, instead of, you know, just one way, right? And a big subject.

Stuart Murray 37:58

Well, it is a big subject. And Janet, you made a nice correction when I asked the question about, you know, it's not embracing it, it's changing it. And, and I think you know from from your experience when a community, or, I guess I should say, a corporation, reaches out to you, can you get a sense how, how genuine they are about wanting to change when you meet with them. I mean, you know, a lot of people are looking at it and saying, hey, you know, kind of, it's the old, you know, check the boxes thing, right? Well, hey, we have this meeting, right? So I guess we're good to go and we move forward. Do you get a sense that there's corporations that you know, from your perspective, just are, let's kind of come out at me from, from a positive perspective, Janet, that really want to change, that you're seeing companies that really, really are looking at having the tough discussions, the tough conversations, because they really do want to change and make a difference.

Speaker 1 38:52

Yeah, and I love that as well, because you do see that. You see people that are genuine, excuse me, that show up, that are meaningful in the words that they choose to speak, and the words that they choose to speak represent the actions that they're already putting in place. They're not turning to you know, individual and saying, well, well, you tell us what we need to do. No, you're the leader. It needs to come from you. So if you're turning to us, then that's a band aid. If you're having conversations and sitting with us and saying, Here's what we've tried, you know, what do you what? How does this make you feel? How can we move forward? What changes? And those simple, quiet questions are big because it opens up the door for you to feel safe because, and I said this before, like I felt that, you know, sometimes if I speak my truth, I'm going to get fired. So why would I like, you know, continue suppressing for sure, but when we're able So, when they provide a safe space to be able to speak your truth. Yes, that's when you know that they are serious about wanting to move forward with change, as opposed to just embracing what needs to be done.

Stuart Murray 40:11

Yeah, it's, I hope that we can, you know, anybody who's listening to this will learn from that, because that, I think, is where, you know, I kind of had a conversation a while ago Janet, with a young First Nations man in in Winnipeg and and just to talk about, sort of the learning process, and I'm just being, you know, candid with you is, I asked this young fellow about, you know, he was very, very prolific in the community. I said, would you ever be involved in politics? Would you ever want to get involved in politics? He said, No, not really. Politics? He said, No, not really. He said, I'm really more interested in changing sort of systemic issues that we've got. And you know, I took from him, and I, you know, I learned from him, as I'm learning from you in this podcast, but I took from him at one point I thought systemic became logistics. I want to get you know systems logistics. We want to talk about logistics, not systemic change that is so baked into our culture. So, you know, for me, that was such a great learning moment. And you know, you've talked a little bit about those changes in terms of, if people are serious about it, it's not that they want to embrace they want to look at what they systemically. Want to change what the way they operate, from a culture standpoint, and and I guess the you know, when I look at what the work that you're doing, is there a way, can you measure it? Janet, from your perspective, can you measure something? You know, what a company say to say to you? You know, we don't want to rip the band aid off, Janet. We really legitimately want to become a company that has a culture that embraces diversity, equity, inclusion, to the point where we don't even talk about what dei is. We live it. We understand it. Are you ever in a position ever to did they ever say, You know what, Janet, we'd love you to come back in a year and just check how are we doing? Can you give us a sense of how we're doing?

Speaker 1 41:58

Yeah, and I think you know that's a great question is, how do you measure that? Because, even when I was, you know, just in Winnipeg last weekend, and I asked the same question, right? So, how are we measuring this? We have these amazing young people come in and they go through, you know, cultural exercise. They go through values exercise. How do we measure that? And they're still working on that. But that is very important, because if the action is being taken and it can't, it's not just it's not a one and done, right, right? So when you look at, you know, sustainability, it is, are we actually living this with purpose, and then is it now becoming something that we do every single day, right? Right? So now we're looking at, you know, we should see this in how they show up. We should see this in in how the work would, you know, applying right now, and all of those things that's going to make a big difference. And, you know, the one word I'm trying to come up with, one word that, you know really, really adds to all of that, and that's making sure that it becomes not just a legacy, but it becomes something that is seen. And how is that done? People will actually say they'll be able to talk about it freely, right? Like everybody has performance reviews. Everybody looks at the different things. But what is helping change your life right now in the company that I'm working with, and they can put their hand up to the President and say, this is because of what you did. This is how I see things changing. This is where I feel like I am confident in the job that I'm doing, because you support it. Yeah, right. So it really does come back from then.

Stuart Murray 43:47

So So Janet, you know, when you look at, I know a lot of people sort of say, hope is not a strategy. And I get that, and I hear that time and time again. But if you were to to look at where things are going what things have happened in your in your life journey, you know, you're you're a mother, you're a grandparent, you've got lots of, lots of generations below you that you're lifting up. Is there something that that gives you hope for the future? Is there something you say, look, I, you know, I just have this belief, and you know, I'm a leader in this community, and so I just want to share this with you.

Speaker 1 44:24

Yes, I believe that we can. And when I say we can, we can do anything that's possible, all we have to do is make the choice. But the big thing there from the choice is attitude, how do I show up? And how do because it starts with yourself, first, if you still have a bad attitude, and if you're angry, and even as black people, if you're angry, because the way that you know we were treated, and all of those things, right, recognize it, value it, and then show up with the. Right attitude, because attitude can change everything. Attitude builds resilience. Attitude builds peace amongst people. Attitude builds relationships and connections. And if we're able to do that one step at a time, we can change the outcome of what we're seeing right now, because there's been change, let's recognize that there has been change, but systematically, when you break it down, only in certain areas, in certain aspects, some companies, not all companies, but to be able to move it to all companies, is that belief in we can all do better, right? And how we show up is a great way to see how we can all do better, and recognizing that,

Stuart Murray 45:48

yeah, you know, I, I would, you know, love to come to one of your your presentations, because, you know, I, you've got such a great feel for who you are, what you want to talk about, leadership, being an entrepreneur, all of those elements. Janet, you know, I just Well, it's impressive. And, you know, I went on your website, and I was immediately drawn to somebody who clearly demonstrates what leadership is. And so, you know, congratulations. I mean, you know, thank you. I don't know that I can appreciate the hard work, just to be candid with you, but, but congratulations on on what you have done, and and so Janet, you know, it's a kind of always say as they hit the off ramp on this, on this conversation, the one thing I want to make sure is, you know, is there a question when I asked you to be on this podcast, is there a Question You hope I might ask you that I didn't ask you?

Speaker 1 46:46

You know, I think the questions that you've asked me really were thought provoking, and for me to be able to, you know, process before I answer them. And I think the one question that I would love to share is, you know, how do you feel about our young people and where they are right now? Because we are, there's so much disruption going on in the world right now, and our younger people are lost, many of them. And we've seen, you know what happened in BC we've seen, you know, different things that are going on right now. And it's a call to action for all adults, every single one of us, to serve them in a way that they don't even know yet. But it's like sometimes just recognizing, just a hello, just a hello, right? The presence of seeing somebody else. And, you know, covid, as you know, changed the way that we communicated to each other. It was a rebuild all over again. And being able to now see younger people, most people, just walk straight by. You know, we've stereotyped we and it's not even color, it's everybody. And I see this when I go to the schools, children afraid to speak their minds, children not wanting to share in case somebody laughs at them. So setting the space for them, or the platform to be able to talk first and then recognizing doesn't matter what they say, just recognize it. It gives them hope.

Stuart Murray 48:19

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And I would say that, you know, I've, I've been very fortunate to be able to attend the last number of years for the opening of the Black History Month in Manitoba, and I've just noticed the last in, we get to the church, and there's, there's more younger people coming out. And, you know, I mean, is it enough? The answer is, that's not the question. There's more. And so more begets more, and so away you go. But, but Janet, James, you know, mother, grandmother, entrepreneur, leadership strategist, thank you for spending some time on humans, on rights. I really appreciate your time.

Speaker 1 49:01

And thank you, thank you for the questions. Thank you. I'm so honored to be amongst you, know, having conversations with you. Stuart, I looked at what you also do, and you're doing phenomenal work, and I can only learn from that as well, right? I mean, I want to continue to do as much as I can do, and thank you for providing this space for me to be able to share some of who I am,

Stuart Murray 49:22

perfect. Janet, thank you so much. Take care.

Unknown Speaker 49:24

Thank you. Thank you.

Stuart Murray 49:32

Okay, so all good, yes, yes, yeah, great. Really enjoyed

Speaker 1 49:37

our conversation. I enjoyed the conversations, yes, yeah.

Stuart Murray 49:42

And I know natty was hopeful that, because I was there for the opening, and then I had to leave, and she was trying to sort of get us connected. So the fact we were really on Sunday

Speaker 1 49:52

and I was there Sunday night,

Stuart Murray 49:56

yeah, so and I just, I couldn't stay for the whole thing, because I had to pick. My granddaughter. But, you know, I haven't missed one. And I don't know how many years Janet, just it's a I feel very, I feel very comfortable there. You know, I'm so welcome there. And there's so many great folks that I that, that I've, you know, I spent a bit of time in politics and and so I was able to share time with people there. And you know, they're always, they want to invite you in. So when they invite you in, they invite you in, and they make you feel part of the family. And so, you know, it was always a great tradition, and I don't ever want to lose that, because it's you know, every year, it's you know, I loved just how, how, you know, the passion that's there right in the energy and so, you know, I mean, you're surrounded by people that really care and want to make a difference, and that's a great environment to be in, because there's not a ton of those.

Speaker 1 50:51

Yes, that's true. Well, I will let you know. I'll be back in Winnipeg. I'll let you know I'd love to go for tea with you. Yeah, for sure, I'll definitely be back. Yeah, doing an event there

Stuart Murray 51:02

great. Janet, okay, thank you so much again. Take care.

Unknown Speaker 51:04

Thank you all right, bye, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai