Clayton Sandy: Orange Shirt Day and the Journey of Healing

We sit down with Clayton Sandy, a knowledge keeper and educator who brings decades of experience in government and Indigenous advocacy to our conversation about Orange Shirt Day and the ongoing journey toward reconciliation.

Clayton shares his powerful personal story - from growing up as the son of a WWII veteran who lost his Indigenous status through enfranchisement, to his own experience in the 60s scoop, to building a career in government while facing systemic racism. His journey led him to become one of Manitoba's most respected voices on Indigenous issues and human rights.

We're covering:

• Why his father became a "non-Indian" after serving Canada in WWII and how this affected Clayton's entire family

• The reality of experiencing racism in government workplaces

• The devastating impact of residential schools on his family

• How systems mapping and education became his tools for creating change across Canada

• Practical ways all Canadians can move beyond awareness to meaningful action on reconciliation

Clayton reminds us that reconciliation isn't just about recognizing past wrongs - it's about stepping up, taking responsibility, and actively supporting Indigenous-led solutions. His message is clear: "Take off your blinders and open up your mind. Don't be afraid to come to a powwow or a gathering."

Whether you're looking to understand the legacy of residential schools, wondering how to become a genuine ally, or seeking ways to honour Orange Shirt Day beyond September 30th, this conversation offers both the historical context and practical guidance needed to move forward together.

Clayton's wisdom, built through decades of education work and lived experience, provides a roadmap for how we can all play a role in the seven generations of healing that reconciliation requires.

Episode Transcript

Stuart Murray 0:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree, Oji Cree, Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 0:19

This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.

Stuart Murray 0:31

September 30 is orange shirt day, also recognized as Canada's National Day for truth and reconciliation. It's a day that honors the children who never came home from residential schools, their survivors, their families and their communities. The orange shirt itself comes from the story of Phyllis webstad, who, at just six years old, had her brand new orange shirt taken away from her on her first day at residential school. That simple act symbolizes the loss, trauma and injustice experienced by 1000s of Indigenous children, but it also carries a powerful message of hope. Every Child Matters. Today, we'll explore why this day is so important, what it teaches us about our history and how each of us can play a role in reconciliation. Now my guest today is and I'm going to call him a knowledge keeper. He also has an Honorary Doctorate of Laws from the University of Winnipeg, and his list goes on of all of his incredible accomplishments, like advising the sits on the board of a hospital, say, Boniface hospital. He also sits on the board of the Winnipeg Foundation, and has created many, many things around reconciliation, but most important, he's a friend, and he is somebody that I have come to know, and I was lucky enough to get to know through covid, and we become good friends since, full disclosure, he sits on my board and his trusted, trusted advisor, and I'm thrilled and delighted to Have him on my humans on right podcast, I'm going to call you Honorary Doctor knowledge keeper. Clayton, Sandy, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you. Stu so yeah, Clayton, you know you're you got such a great history, and rather than have me read it, for those listening and kind of watching us on YouTube, tell us a little bit about who you are and some of your background, and we'll get into a good discussion on orange shirt day. But want to talk a bit about some of the racism, etc, that you and I have talked about when we have breakfast, but just share with a little bit it's about who you are, please.

Clayton Sandy 2:36

Okay, okay. Again, yeah. Name's Clayton, Sandy and my my home community is a community in western Manitoba called Sioux Valley, Dakota, First Nation. That's where my mom is from, and my dad's from a reserve called tranquil fine, Dakota. It means Pipestone and my family, my parents and my siblings. Yeah, we never, we never actually grew up on a reserve. We grew up in a small town just north of Brandon called rivers, rivers camp, and used to be an army base there. I'll go back to, maybe like my dad just passed away last year. He was 102 and in 1941 he he, he went to, he signed up to go to World War Two, and at that time, there's a policy there that is called enfranchisement, that any indigenous person goes to signs up for Canadian Army automatically becomes a non Indian. So dad went off to war. He's wounded twice, and he comes back and he was, he was a non Indian. And so that, yeah, I think I, I've often talked about that many, many times in my journey with my dad and and so when dad came back, there's 12 kids, and two have passed away, and the 10, that's the 10 that that survived. Yeah, we didn't have status. So we grew up around army bases, like we grew up around and we grew up in rivers. Then we moved to a little town just just east of Brandon, a Brandon called Douglas, and dad was was stationed at Shiloh, and then eventually we made our way to Brandon. And I think maybe, I think maybe I was around maybe 10 or 11, when, when, when, when my parents separated, and then when I was 11, I got, I got part of what they call the 60s scoops. I got sent to put into Costa care in Dauphin Manitoba, and I was there till I was 17.

Stuart Murray 4:24

So So Clayton just before. We'll stop there at 17. But just you said a couple of things that I think are important for anybody listening to say that your father became a non status. Had non status recognition. What is the difference between having status and non status in terms of, what does that mean from a First Nations perspective? Well, you're

Clayton Sandy 4:45

not recognized under um, under, under Canada, as being, actually being an Indian, so you're not, yeah, you could, because, because the Dakota people like, we never signed any treaties in Canada, because we're originally from the States, so we had no land to surrender. So we're. We're what they called status, non treaty, because we had, we had no, we had no treaty. So, yeah, so dad was basically status. He was a non status, a non treaty, right? Yeah. So then, so, so, then, so, then, yeah, so, so, yeah. So, when I was around 11 or 12, and I got put into foster care. So, so my My mother stayed and stayed in Brandon with my older siblings, and then I lived in dock until I was 17 and and to tell people, some people, they seem to and I used to feel this way many times before, some people would say that they had her, they had a really, a really good experience. I read at that in their foster placement, or even at residential school. And that's, that's, that's what happened with me. I wound up in a really good foster home and and my my my foster parents. I still talk to my foster mom maybe twice a week. She's think she's 92 or 93 now I just talked to yesterday morning. So we go yesterday. We talked to twice a week, and and they had, they had three kids of their own, and I think they said that they fostered something like 350 kids over about 45 years. Wow. And then, and then, when, when I left, when I turned 17, they adopted two indigenous babies, and so Glenn and Glenn and Lizzie. So they're, they're probably in their in their 40s, probably maybe 50s now, but anyway, so when I got back to Brandon, I was, I think I was, I was, I was only home for but maybe not even a, maybe just a little over a year. Then my mom passed away. And then I went since I've been since I was, since I was 17. Wow, yeah. And then then again, and my dad, my dad, and of course, when, when? When, when my parents separated, my dad moved, moved to he was kind of all over the place, because, because you're Dakota people, we have dual citizenship, my father moved to the States. So he lived in Oklahoma, he lived in Washington. So he kind of traveled around. And he was, he was like an entrepreneur, like he and I know when he was in Oklahoma and and then he ran and he had his own little bar, little little town, a little bar where people, everybody knows each other. So he did that for a few years. And then he then he moved up to Washington and a little place called Blaine, Blaine Washington and and bought some property there and built a home there. And, of course, he was, he was remarried, and, yeah, but my dad and I never had a good relationship at all, and, and he hadn't, he hadn't actually talked to me, maybe, like, probably, like, 40 years, maybe he was upset with me when I will, when I decided to to, I guess, changed my lifestyle and and, and when, when I mean when I mean that, you know, I the home I grew up, up in, and, and all the, all the relatives around me from from Chernobyl and Pipestone, I found when I when I look back, I find that I just wondered, like all the adults seem to be, there was something wrong, and there's, there's a lot of lot of alcoholism, there's a lot of violence, lot of all kinds of abuses going on, and I didn't know where that came from. It wasn't until I think I became an adult, and, you know, eventually moved to Winnipeg, and then, and then, I always knew about residential schools, because my mom would always talk about her experience at residential school. I always remember that show the Waltons. Remember the Waltons, whenever, whenever the lights went out, they start talking,

Unknown Speaker 8:32

Yeah, mom, yeah. Good night. Good night. Good night, good night.

Clayton Sandy 8:35

Yeah, yeah, when my dad wasn't home, which is quite often. So my mom would talk. She'd teach us Dakota and words she talked about her experience, but everything she talked about her time at Brandon residential school was was very, very, very terrible, like the treatment and and the starving and the sexual abuse and and all that kind of stuff. And so, so, but, but so, so she had. She had the four sisters. They all lived in Sioux Valley, and no, but she had four sisters that went to residential school with her. No, sorry, she had six sisters that went to residential school with her. And at some point, two of the youngest ones disappeared. So, so, so their their names was Clara and Dora, and I always remember hearing their names, because, you know, I, you know when, when I'd be I'd be home sometimes, and my grandma would come in from Sioux Valley and come stay with my mom. I'd always hear them crying and talking about Clara and Dora all the time and so. So in the course, I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't really acknowledge or understand that at that time. Wasn't till later on when I started hearing, when I started hearing, when I started educating myself more about residential schools and impact. And that happened when I went, when I when I came into government in 1976 so, so, so from, from Brandon, I moved to Winnipeg, and had I went back to school again and got into government. And one thing I. Couldn't I couldn't comprehend was how much people hated me in government, and they hated me because I had, I had braids and and, and this. Couldn't get over the racism I experienced. And I started in government 1976 and I just couldn't get over how much they hated me and and, and I couldn't figure that out. And they just seemed like they just didn't like Indians, and they say nasty things to me and my colleagues. And there weren't a lot of indigenous people working in government at that time, like I'd probably say I could count them on both hands of the people I knew that work work for the provincial government. So I didn't, I didn't stay in too many, in many departments. I moved quite a bit, but my career, I started off as a draftsman and with natural resources. Then I moved to Energy and Mines, and I became a cartographer. And then from there, I went back to I lost my job under one film, and came in, I lost my job, and then I went back to school, and the deputy minister of education became a friend of mine, and he told me, said, there's, there's, there's a course, there's a there's an adult course in Brandon on education, if you, if you, if you go, if you take the course, I'll bring you back into government when you complete the course. So I'd so I did that, so I came back into government. And by that time, I think it was probably, probably, like, maybe the early 90s. So I had, like, maybe about 1816, 18 years of experience of government already, and I was starting to learn the ropes. I started to get to know people. And I remember one time I was going to a really terrible time, and somebody had told me there's a native guy at the ledge that works there, and his name is Elijah Harper, so, anyway, yeah, so, yeah, so, so, so I thought, well, maybe, maybe I'll give him a call. So I give him a call one day, out of the blue there and, and I think Paul, he wasn't Paul he wasn't government. Was the premier, yeah. How was Paulie? Yeah. So I saw, I explained to I explained to Elijah who I was and all that. And when, as soon as you heard my my last name, he said. But he said, Do you know do you know Carl? Do you know Bruce and you know Earl and those are my older brothers. And I didn't realize that Elijah Harper went to bird residential school. Guess where? That's where six of my siblings went, where I went as well. So so he so we made a connection there right away. Yeah and yeah. He invited me down to ledge. He brought bought me lunch, and then he I just shared, shared all the racism that I was going through and stuff like that. And he shared that, you know, there's racism in his, in his in his circle as well, even though that they're all, they're all from the same parties for racism is still alive and well. And I just shared my experience with, you know, with what I was going through my department. So it just so happened another, another, and Elijah didn't have a have a cabinet post at that time. And then, so just all of a sudden, another guy came in and, and Elijah called him over, and that was Jerry story, right? Okay, Jerry was that was the minister of that of the department I was working, I was working for, and and then, and then, so, yeah, so he asked him to sit down. He had coffee with us, and then I just shared sort of, sort of what I was going through. So Jerry said that I'll call your department. He said, so. So by the time lunch was over, when Jerry had left, and then Elijah and I stayed for maybe another 45 minutes when I got back to the office. I guess he had already called the office, and I didn't realize what happens when a minister calls an office. And so, so, yeah, yeah. So, so I get back to the office, and then all their, you know, people are ready to cater to me and stuff like that, and, and basically, all I, all I kind of wanted to do at that time, and, and, what, what, what, you know, what was going on was that, well, I wanted to be treated with some kind of respect that. And, you know, that's and then I remember my executive, executive director saying to me one time, and friend of my colleagues are all you f and Indians that stupid, you know? And just like, didn't. So that was, yeah. So there was, it. Was always comments around that, around indigenous people. The Office at that time was an etons place. So people saw indigenous people at the library Park, and so they'd come back to go out and come back for lunch, and they'd ask me questions about, you know, why you're all in why? Why are all Indians drunks and on welfare and begging for money and data, data. And when I thought about it, it was, it was true and and they were my people. And to tell you the honest truth, there's a lot of people from from communities that that I knew, so I knew quite a bit of them. And there's actually two older gentlemen that used to be on the main drag, and they're, they're both veterans as well, from SU Valley. And then, yeah, so, so I used to tell, tell that story to some of my colleagues that that would listen. And then so, all of sudden, they asked, so the link was the ADM asked me what I wanted, and they said, what I really want, I wouldn't mind to be I wouldn't mind to be able to educate other indigenous youth about my the job I have. So they so they said, Okay, well, you can have there. 80% of your job, and you can go do what you want to do, in regards to into sharing your sharing your work with with indigenous people. So my title at that time was a cartographer. So I was going out, and I was going to career fairs and in different Brandon and Flint, Flon and off, and I was promoting careers to the indigenous community, for youth to get into drafting, or where, or whatever. And I found that, you know, found that really exciting. And then I decided to then, then when the government changed, and of course, I lost my job. And then, of course, when I came back into education, I came back, and I came back, and when I came back, I wound up in education. And then, and then, of course, on my journey, I always get to, I know, for some reason, I always run into a lot of really people, different people, and I'm not afraid to go out and talk to people and stuff like that. But I remember in the in the in the beginning of 90s, they had what they call the stain school initiative, which was a national, federal, national program. And I guess they had the CFL football teams going out and promoting stay in school, in in every province, right? So, of course, in in Manitoba, the blue bomber they had the Blue Bombers had that role. And anyway, so, so, so I got invited by the federal government to come to press conference, and it was at the charter house in the basement, and the lady that that was actually the manager of communications, was a lady named Mary Scott.

Clayton Sandy 16:27

So, so I remember so, so I went there, and then she introduced me to to to a guy who's who's probably the same size as me, and I made a joke. I said, Hey. I said, you and I going to see eye to eye. I told them Hey. And then that that was Trevor Kenner day, okay, yeah, and it used the kicker, yeah, yeah. So, hey, so, so then, so then so they so, so, so I got, I got permission from, from from, from the department, to travel with the Blue Bombers for next couple of years. Wow. So we traveled. We traveled all on. So, so the bombers were having a difficult time going into this. They said that when they went into when they flew into a community, or went traveled up north to community, they didn't feel very welcome there. They didn't feel that that that there's no connection. And people, people just kind of kind of stayed away from them. So they asked me if I, if I would be interested in traveling with them and doing that introduction. And by that time, because I was in Dauphin in residential school, and a block away from my foster home was, was Mackay residential school, and so. So all the time I was there, I spent most of my time at the residential school, you know, playing hockey, football, baseball, whatever. So that's where I got to know all my northern friends, and many became leaders. And that's so, yeah. So I knew a lot of people already in most of the northern communities. So we traveled all, all over the north. And I'll share a quick story with you. I remember we went up to, I think we went up to Rankin inlet, or someplace up there. We flew up there and, and I think there was James Murphy was there, yep. Trevor Kenner, prayers, yes, yeah. Chris wallby, and then Gordon sinter was there. There's, and I can't remember who else was there, but anyways, we flew in. We flew into this community, and we get there and and then they take us to the school. Then there's, you know, let's maybe 200 kids in the gymnasium. And while we're, while we're walking into the gymnasium, you can hear all the kids like talking and screaming and having a good time. So as soon as we walked in, we walked into the gymnasium, it went really, just totally quiet, and they're looking at us and, and I thought they're, you're looking at Chris wall, because, you know, he was a giant thing. Yeah, for sure, the principal comes over, and if she's, it was a native woman, and she says, she says to us, she said, she said to to us. She said, these kids never seen a black person before. They said,

Unknown Speaker 18:45

Wow, isn't that interesting that

Clayton Sandy 18:48

James Murphy, yeah. James Murphy, so just Yeah. So James is all like and James and I became really good friends and and, of course, he always shared his his experience growing up in Florida, and he shared his experience of, you know, remembering, you know, the, you know, the, he still remembers when one, when they had, they had the uh, segregated washrooms down there, right? And Uber. So he so, he knows, he, he knew what racism was all about, right? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So he had it. So, yeah. So he so, we always, you know, because he's black and I'm indigenous, we always tease each other stuff like that. Yeah, I took it in stride. And, you know, the kids want to come and touch him, and he wanted to touch his hair stuff by hand. So it was a really cool kind

Stuart Murray 19:28

Yeah, so Clayton, let me ask you a question. So, you know, we, because you and I have had many breakfasts and we've shared this, and I just think it's important for anybody listening to this, you know, you, you You say you've never experienced so much racism until you got to government. Did you have any sense when they were interviewing you or looking at to bring you in as a position, that that was something? Had you heard of that were you did this catch you completely by surprise? Because I just wonder. You know, in fairness to you. Whoever hired you, you know? I mean, that's a they put you in a very, very difficult position. I mean, you're going to go in there and say, Look, I'm a trained professional, and I'm a photographer. I've got some skills to to show and and instead of being advanced and helped and to promote your professional career, you run up against the wall of racism. So why do you do you get a sense of, you know, why? Why? Why your thoughts, I guess, of, why was that? Why is that?

Clayton Sandy 20:31

Well, when, when I first started my career, when I went back to school, when went back to school as an adult, I met a I met a gentleman. Is his dad was actually his dad was a judge in Manitoba, Ian dubiansky. So Ian Ian's son was Peter. And Peter became, he was my he was my manager, my project manager, when and the program was was then Peter and I became friends, and Peter became my mentor for the next, next 38 years. Wow. So so, so, so 100 Peter, and he introduced me to all kinds of people, and all non native people. They're all nice people, like they're all kind and accepting me and stuff like that. And, and then, so, yeah, so I just assumed everybody was the same, right? And then, so, yeah. So, yes, he's the one that actually kind of encouraged me to get into government. He was working for government and, and, yeah, so, but then, yeah, so when I remember my first office was, was on century Street, 1007, century Street, and there's one other native person there, ready. And I think I've introduced it to him. His name was Jack mercury, right? And yeah, so Jack was there already, and I remember, so, yeah, so that's where Jack and I met, and he was the only indigenous person there and then, and then him and I became good friends, but I remember, and you got to get also to I come from a large family. I have eight older brothers, and we always like to fight all the time. I mean, because we went to we went to school on the army base, and we all went to the same school, Brook school, they called it. And whenever racism happened, my brothers would beat the crap out of somebody, or that was always going on. So I saw I learned to fight, and learn to fight when that when I was younger and I wasn't, I wasn't scared to and I always remember my mom said to us, since kind of still instilled into us that, you know, life's going to be hard, and then you're going to find people that are going to not like you. And doesn't matter how big they are, don't back down from them, and then, if they crap on you once, they'll crap on you three, four or five times. So it didn't matter how big people were, I wasn't afraid to take them on Yeah, so when? So anyway, so Jack and I, Jack and I started hanging out together, and he was, I think he was there maybe about a year before, and Jack was what they call, that the Economist. And that the economist is somebody who does, who does Lake names. And, you know, yeah, so, and Jack was actually probably one of the people responsible for all the indigenous names we have on the maps today. Oh, really, yeah. So Jack was actually his job was to travel throughout the province, with, with, with, with the surveyors, and his job was to was, was to interview communities, and especially elders, as to as to how that community got developed, and the traditional names and around that. So all those traditional names we see on maps today, and some of them are like this long, yeah, so Jack was responsible for that, and then, as a cartographer, we're responsible for putting those names on a map.

Stuart Murray 23:23

Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, fantastic, yeah, amazing. So Clayton, let me just say ask you, you know, just as you sort of talk and weave and talk about your history, which is incredible, I do want to kind of bring it back to, you know, the issue the brown that is going to happen around orange shirt day, and, and, and I wanted to kind of get a sense from you. You know, what does orange shirt Day mean to you personally?

Clayton Sandy 23:52

Well, I think that I was gonna, I was gonna eventually get, get to that okay, because Karen, like so, so when, once, when was so, when I, when I worked in government, and then I started moving different departments. I hadn't had an opportunity to take some training at the Civil Service Commission. They had, they had that and at that time, we didn't have laptops or computers. We had hard copy. So remember, they had a book that went around, book that came around departments from the Civil Service Commission, and I guess in that book was all kinds of courses if you want to enhance your skills, you can apply to civil service for a one to two or three day course. So I went through it, and I saw a course there. It was called dealing with Native people. And, yeah, yeah,

Stuart Murray 24:36

okay, you're right, Yeah, no kidding, yeah, for sure, you better sign up for that one Clayton.

Clayton Sandy 24:41

Yeah, you leave. Maybe you've lost. Yeah, perfect. So anyways, I applied for it, and they let me go to the two day course. And I was more interested in the material, and I was, I think I was more interested in who is delivering the course for sure. So we get the Civil Service Commission on Carleton Street, and there's about, you know, about 39 Native people sitting in a room there. And of course, I'm the only indigenous. And then it was, you know, nine o'clock, and we're still waiting for the instructor to show up, and all sudden, this non native guy stands up, a young Polish guy, and he's the instructor, and his name was Dennis. And Dennis, I became a really good friend. So I, so I, I, so, yeah. So I sat there for two days, and he taught me quite a bit. And then, after I finished that, and then, and then, and everything he talked about was, you know, he talked a little, he he didn't know a lot of the history, but he he shared little bits and pieces. And the bits and pieces really started, started making sense to me about the impact of policies and residential schools and what we see today on the street. And then, so I so after the course, I went. And I went and approached the Assistant Deputy Minister, and I said, this is wrong to have a have a Polish guy deliver this course, right? And then, and he was kind of cocky as well, and he said, Well, if you think he didn't say that, but he the way, he the way he was sounding, what you think is so good, why don't you do it? And I said, Yeah, well, said, Call me over here. So that's what they did, so I went over there, and so I developed two courses for them. I took that title of dealing with Native people out, and I revamped that course, and I called it communicating effectively with Native people. Nice, yeah. Did another course called Walk a Mile in my moccasins, okay? And so it says. So I asked them, it was possible if I could deliver this course in government in every department that deals with Native people in like, Family Services, we take the health so they had, so, yeah, yes. So they so they said, they said they allowed you to do that, yeah, yeah. So I did that for the next probably 18 months, and I booked up all the time. But I think that was sort of, that was sort of my journey towards learning about myself, right? Because I found that whatever, you know, whatever I was teaching in, that I was finding a people, I was learning just as much as anybody else around the table. And then, so, so, yeah, so then, then all of a sudden, all the stuff about my family, residential school start coming making really clear to me about what the impact on, you know, on my my parents, my community, and I know if I mentioned six of my siblings went to birdle residential school, right? And yeah, and so, so they're trying to think clear to me how often say I grew up in a family that just kind of like turned upside down. And because I grew up in a family, there's a lot of lot of violence, racism, alcoholism, sexual abuse, everything. And so that really came clear to me. And then I looked around my community, and then it was the same thing. And so I really wanted to learn more, so I so actually started, actually started, started taking, taking courses. And of course, we couldn't take courses online, but I was phoning and fine people. And then so I found, I found a couple of I found a professor in Lethbridge, and so I connected with him, and he was actually Lakota. He was from South Dakota, and him and I became good friends. So he really taught me a lot about, about about the impact and and the policies, the impact of residential school, and when, when, when I to go back to when, when my when my grandmother had to send her her daughters to residential school, like two, two of the young sisters went missing. And this was probably like in the late 30s. And so I used to always hear my mom talk about that. So me and a cousin of mine who passed me a couple years ago, him and I made a path like, probably, like, in the late 70s, 80s, that we try and find those, those two, those two aunties of ours, right? And then, so, yeah, so then, so I think it was maybe 2017 and like we were sending new we're sending messages out about anybody knew about, about, you know, Dora or Clara, Wamba, D and and then we get a call, one in 2017 from a lawyer from Florida. They had just buried her in Florida.

Stuart Murray 28:48

One of them, one of them had been married,

Clayton Sandy 28:51

yeah, yeah, yeah. They just, they just buried Dora in Florida. And so, so, so how that came about was, was that, and the story that this lady knew she was, she was a lawyer for Dora and her husband for many years. So I guess Dora wound up in Michigan, and that's where she grew up. So her and her, her, her and her, her husband to be. I guess he ran a dairy farm, and they had no kids, and they both retired, and they moved it forward. And then he passed away first. Then when she passed away, her marriage certificate had Dora wabadi on there, and they didn't know where she came from. So they started doing a search, and it went back to Sioux Valley. So they contacted, they contacted the rusty and I so, so we contact the lawyer. So the lawyer gave, lawyer gave us as much information as possible about Dora, yeah, yeah. And the other one, Sarah Clara, Clara, we never found in, never, yeah. And then, of course, that when, you know when, when they found all the graves, all the graves in BC, and right, we, like my mom, always told us that, you know, people were dying in brand residential school, like babies and kids and babies were being born and and, you know, people were being buried there. Sister. Was telling us this probably like in the 50s and 60s, and yeah. And of course, at that time, nobody would listen, and whatever, for sure. And it was so wasn't surprised to me when all these, all these graves were found and and then it made me wonder about my other auntie, Clara, if she was maybe buried in Brandon someplace, or, you know, I don't know. So then, yeah, yeah. So then, so then, when they found, when they found all the graves and and then the horn, the orange t shirt, became very prevalent, and that. And so I really, I really took an interest, and I wanted to, I want to get involved in all that. And I think most of my career was basically, you know, educating people about, about not only, not only residential schools, but about what my culture and and so, so I think it was maybe, I think maybe in the middle, early 90s, I started my own company nationally. And I actually, actually, I was, I was offering two day two day indigenous course. And I think, I think I educated most all the national banks. And then, like all the banks, went, took my course, and and Public Service Commission, CMHC took my course. So, so I was traveling across Canada, educating people about, about working with indigenous people. So, so, so and then, then, then again, I was meeting a lot of indigenous people, and I was learning more and more and more. But then, yeah, so, then, yeah, so and then, but all the way through my life, I have two boys, but all of my boys have always, I've always heard my story all the time. I always shared my story about my, you know, my aunts and my mom and my my community and everything, everything, everything that you know, that history. And when I start sharing that history, I think it was that was around maybe 1981 or 82 and then my father, through Mary Scott and the group, we went up to Churchill one time and and we were doing a presentation there, and he asked me, because Churchill, a lot of indigenous people live there, they wanted to hear about my my story as well. Not Not just me, me working in government and being me a cartographer. So I started sharing my story, and people got really interested in my story. And the story I shared was similar to this, but I was sharing just a story about about, you know, just witnessing violence, violence all the way growing up, and how I never wanted to be like that. And so yeah, so they recorded the story, and then, then, then they asked me if they could publish the story, and I said, Yeah, go ahead and said, I actually didn't know that, that they're going to publish it and go national with it. So anyway, so, so my auntie and BC, BC read it and see my dad is living in Washington state, so she cut it out and took it down to my dad. And my dad got really upset about that, and what I had said, what was there about my father? I said, I My father is a veteran. You know, when he was a hard worker and but when he was drinking, he was a very angry man. And I grew up in a home with, you know, with with him, with him, I don't know, you know how many times I witnessed him put my mom in the hospital. So that's what's written. So, so, so, so my aunt took it down to him, and that was around maybe 8182 so from there, he quit talking to me, yeah, and, and my father liked pow wows and stuff like that. So, so also the so the next 40 years, you know, I traveled to the states to power. Any place I ran to him, he wouldn't talk to me. I'd go up to him and talk to him, and he get upset with me, you know. And yes, so he never talked to me. And radio right up till, till the time

Stuart Murray 33:39

he died, wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Clayton, you know, it is an incredible journey, an incredible story and and, you know, I think when I asked you to come on to this podcast, I said, you know, I want you to do exactly what you're doing, tell your story. This is you don't. You're not. I'm not asking you to speak on behalf of any organization or anything. This is just, you know, Clayton Sandy's journey. But you know, your insight is so compelling, and I guess it's one of the reasons that I wanted to really get your thoughts on. You know, you, you're, you're an educator, you teach people. And so if somebody were to ask you, you know, what is it important for all Canadians to understand the legacy of residential schools in the context of why this day, orange shirt day is, is such an amazing I mean, part of it is, and I, you know, I always sort of say orange shirt day, you know, it's not about a day, you know, it's not about a day, but, but, you know, the fact is, Is is that you know that maybe that's a star Clayton, that there, there's a day that has been recognized, etc, but what, what? What does it What would you like Canadians to take away from, at least the beginning of trying to understand of, why do we have an orange shirt day? What would you like Canadians to take away from that? Well.

Clayton Sandy 35:00

Well, I think that, I think that, you know, many times my presentations, and I still say that today, I still think white people are scared of Indians, you know, and because, because, usually they see the worst of us all the time, and then, and then, then they think we're all like that, but, but we're not. And, you know, I, I do work with Main Street project, and I connected to Shalom. And when I look at their annual reports, and they say they feel that, you know, there's about maybe 2200 indigenous people that use the services downtown, and it's all the same people. And then when in Winnipeg, you know, which is known as the largest reserve in Canada, we have like, 110,000 native people here, and not all of us are on Main Street in downtown, right? So, people so, so we have like 2000 on Main Street. Where's the 100? Where's the other 108,000 so I tried to tell non native people to think about that, like, where are we, right? Like, we're all over the place. Like, I love living living in Winnipeg is I can go anywhere in Winnipeg. I can run to a native person, and I've traveled across Canada, and some cities you never see and you never see an indigenous person. And so people just need to try to not, you know, not think about that what they see, you know, at the bus, at the bus shack, or on the street, whatever. And there's a reason why people are there, but you know, most, most, most Canadians have never learned that history, and I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't the history that they learned about indigenous people, and you know, in their education is the same, same education that I learned as well about it about myself, and it wasn't, it wasn't accurate, and it wasn't written by us. So I tell people, you know, if you want to learn about us, talk to indigenous people, you know, watch APTN and, you know, listen to our stories, because we have a lot to offer just that we're never being actually offered to come in and share stories. And that was the purpose. That was the purpose of the Truth and Reconciliation, was basically for us to tell us to tell our truth. And then the other part is basically to to wait for non-Indigenous people to open up and start, start, start reconciling with us, and we're still waiting for that. Yeah, I had, I had the opportunity to travel with the truth and reconciliation. I grew up across Canada, and I was sharing my story, and I heard 1000s of stories of you know, people you know across Canada, and yeah, and yeah, so, so I think we kind of bared our souls to Canadians, and now we're waiting for reciprocation to basically to happen. And and don't be afraid of us, and just get to know us for who we are. Because, yeah, we're no different than you are, for sure.

Stuart Murray 37:38

And you know Clayton, you know, just you and I talk about this over breakfast, but you know, I'm going to ask you again, because I'd love others to hear it, rather than just me, to get to a sense of your wisdom. How can we, you know, I know it sounds simple, like, how do we get to get to a position where we are are on the same level as indigenous peoples that, you know, it's not just a saying, it's not just a comment, but it's actual, real life. How do we start that process? How do we start to work through that? I mean, the Truth and Reconciliation, you know, you know, I had a part of it as well. When I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, it was amazing. And as I shared with you, I grew up in punish I Saskatchewan. There were, there were four reserves around where we lived and and I guess the question is that the people that have one view of native people, and it's the wrong view, you know it, and they can't seem to get lift themselves out of that. What? How you know so you know you and you speak to 1000s and 1000s of people. What message would you like to get on a day when orange shirt Day is coming up? What message would you like people that are listening to this podcast to say, I have to open up my heart and my mind to understand what it is that we how we need to observe and work with and respect, give respect to First Nations peoples, because they're Canadians

Clayton Sandy 39:03

also, yeah, yeah. Like, I think through our age, we, you know, we, at one time, we grew up around horses, hey, and so I always tell people, You ever see those horses with the blinders on right? Yeah, take off your blinders. Right? Take off your blinders and open up your mind. And don't be afraid to come to a powwow or a gathering. And are you know, to to, yeah, just to come, come out and participate in something. Because if you, if you, if you Google orange T Shirt Day right now, you'll find 1000s events going on across Canada. Come out and participate. Come and talk. And I just finished a course two days ago, and I had a guy that followed up with an email yesterday, and he asked me if I can send him some resources and videos. So I did that, and then I challenged him to to go to the forks on Orange T Shirt Day and march with the people. And if a non native person asked you what to do, and they're telling you, you know you're you know, you want to become an ally. You don't know, and just tell the truth. Basically, I don't know, but I you know, and but I want, I want to support somehow, and I don't know how to and this is so I'm here. Can somebody help me get educated, and then I'll march with you in a ton to will march with, March with the people from the forks to the MTS. And have they're having a power there, right? Taking the power when, like I organized, you know, some an international gathering here, many national gatherings. And we always ensure encourage, we're trying to encourage non native people to come, to attend, but we always have a typical time getting the people that should be there. But you get people in different parts of Winnipeg. I used to have non native, non native friends that would support, support me. And I remember one lady in particular, she said, you know, she said, You know, when I travel on Winnipeg, I can actually go around the perimeter and not see Native people if I don't want to, you know, she said, I don't have to see that. She said, If I but I don't have to go down Main Street or Portage Avenue. I can there, I can circle places. And I don't have to see that, she said, But I go down there to remind myself that people need help, and people are people like people don't realize we're people and and it just that said, the history we've, we've had, it isn't a good history, but we're still here. We're not going anywhere. And in our population is growing and, but yeah, if you're, you know, like, yeah it, I don't know if they're just no magic solution for sure, yeah. And just about respect. What respect? Yeah, and, and bring, bring your guard down, your fear down, like we're not going to we're not going to rob you or rape you or fight you or anything. Just come on, yeah,

Stuart Murray 41:47

for sure. And, I mean, you know Clayton, you know the fact is, is that you know you were honored at the University of Winnipeg to give an honorable Doctorate of Laws. You've been asked to sit on the foundation of the Winnipeg foundation. You've been asked to sit on the board of the st Boniface hospital because of who you are and what you have established in terms of your ability to teach and to share and to bring people along with your journey. And so, you know, and again, one of the challenges that I remember, I remember, I'm quoting Murray Sinclair, who talked about the seven generations that it took to get us here. And it's going to take that to actually get on an understanding about reconciliation. You know, one of the challenges is in in sort of, you know, the white world, if I could use that term, Clayton, you know, they look at and say, like a long weekend is a long time. You know, you're talking seven generations. Can't even fathom that. How do we start to become an understanding? I mean, the fact that we I mean, there's nothing wrong with the fact that we think differently. There's nothing wrong with that at all. My fact is quite healthy, and you can learn in that process. But, but how do you how can you reflect and teach people you know that that the seven generations of healing is is positive, as opposed to saying, Wow, that's just, you know, I'll be dead before that happens. The answer is, you will be, but it's a process. And how do you try to bring in sort of a culture that is not used to understanding that length of time and what that means, and how you become at peace. And you know, I just share this story Clayton, that one of the things that I learned when I was at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights is the power of silence. You know, we if there's silence, you know, people feel uncomfortable, you have to sort of say something, because silence is just not comfortable. But you know, I learned from a couple of elders, I learned from you that the silence is a powerful, powerful tool. So, you know, how do you when you get in front of a group of people, like, how do you start the process of getting them to understand the importance of of your culture that will allow us to be a stronger human race.

Clayton Sandy 44:10

You know, well, I let people know that I'm not there to blame anybody. The past is the past, and we can't do nothing but the past, where we can do something but the future. And I'm going to make you feel uncomfortable, but when you feel uncomfortable, you start learning. So don't be afraid to feel uncomfortable. And and, you know, and yeah, because a lot of times, some audiences, they never hear this stuff ever, and then they find it difficult to hear this stuff sometimes, but, but again, it's what we live, what we've gone through. And I remember my, my, my, my mentor, Peter, he would say to me sometimes, you know, he said a bit your, you know, people my age, if we went through half of the things that you've experienced, we would have committed suicide, or we would have been, we would have been dead long time ago. I don't know how you guys survived. He says, right, and, yeah, so that's, that's, but, yeah, so, but we, you know, we're. Resilient then, but we're, we're here to we're here to help you, if you if you want to be helped, and the only way. And I really encourage people to stand in their truth. If you can't stand in your truth, there's something there's something wrong. And so I always tell people, you know, if you hear people talk about, you know, negative things about indigenous people and stuff like that, say you met Clayton Sandy, you know he doesn't. He doesn't fit into that stereotype. And Clayton Sandy knows, in Winnipeg, he knows, you know, 80,000 additional people that are doing doing really well, their doctors, their lawyers, their dentists, their homeowners were, you know, we have mortgages. We have all that. We have that as well. And you know when and when we have no children and grandchildren that we know we want to invest in their future. Yeah, it's, it feels it sounds simple, but, but for some people, just, they can't seem to take, take the blinders off and the blinders off, yeah. And you know, like, like, you go to your certain, you know, segments of Winnipeg where you never, sometimes, maybe the schools aren't, aren't. And I hear this from educators as well teachers, especially, you know when you know when, when you know when, when, when they're doing stuff like orange T Shirt Day in, in that part of the city, it's kind of, they always say, like, it's, it's so it's so sugar coated. It doesn't mean anything, right? And so rather than hear anything difficult, they just want to sugarcoat it. And and, yeah, we've done our thing, or we've checked the box off for that day, you know, and then so. But I think it's, it goes a lot further than that. And so all the people that I've known on my journey have actually got involved, yeah. And what I'll do for you is, and maybe I'll leave, I'll send you. I have about 35 action items that I put together. Anybody can, you know, can look at these action items and get involved, or if they want to get involved,

Stuart Murray 46:41

excellent, yeah. And you know what? We'll put that into the podcast notes Clayton, because I do think that one of the things that you know, we try on these, on these podcasts, if anybody's listening, because a lot of times people are listening and saying, I'd like to get involved. I don't know how to, you know? I mean, in the they're genuine, they're looking at ways. So if you have have, you know that that would be a great way for us to to give people an opportunity. And as you say, rather than just wearing an orange shirt for one day, here's a way to actually make a difference.

Clayton Sandy 47:12

Sure. Yeah, I wanted just to share like I retired from government after 40 years in 2016 and in 2016 myself and a retired professor started a program called circles for reconciliation. So what we did, we brought five indigenous people together, five non native people together, with a facilitator, and we spent, we spent seven, I think was 75 minutes a week for 10 weeks. And the first two years of that, of that project, I bet you probably everybody, all the non native people in the circle were probably 65 plus, really, and they're all seniors, yeah. And the most were, most of them were from churches. And I would get baffled, because they're at, you know, seven. They're 6570 75 they knew nothing about my history, nothing about my history. And so I think after maybe four years of me doing that, the age was getting younger and younger, and most of them were educated females, interesting that were wanting to get engaged and wanting to So, so we have a lot of allies in the female world that are getting younger and younger and yeah, so, so when I look at the universities and the colleges here, especially University of Winnipeg, you know, it's mandatory now for them to take an indigenous, this indigenous introductory course. So those are the kinds of things we need. And when I worked in government, I was always pushing for indigenous authors and video makers and stuff like that to have that in the in the curriculum,

Stuart Murray 48:42

and they've, they've done that, right? I mean, that's another that's where you've made a that's where you've made a difference. Sure, Clayton, one of the things that, and this is not necessarily around orange shirt date, per se, but you know, one of the things that you and I have shared with is the power of going to a sweat a sweat lodge. Sure, sure. What you know, for those people that have never heard of a sweat lodge, what? What is the importance and the power of a sweat lodge?

Clayton Sandy 49:12

Well, it's hard to answer that in, you know, five minutes I hear you, but it's, it's, I always tell people. I tell people sometimes I'm going, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to church, I'm going to pray and but, but I'm going to pray in a different way and and in a different setting. And we always say that, you know, when, when we build a sweat lodge, it's a round, round structure and all that. And it's like we always say, we're going back into our mother's womb for another short period of time. So we're going back into our into our mother's womb, and we're going to a place that's, you know, that all of us spent at some point, you know, and it was safe and and when, when we come out of there, well, when we're in there, we're asking rational we're praying in there, and we pray in our own language, or English, or whatever and all that, but we're asking creator to help us. And. But also we pray for everybody and everything. It's not, not just, just for us. So we're, and I always encourage young people to let go what they're carrying as well, leave it in there. We call, we call the rocks grandfathers in there. And so we always say the grandfathers that we we know, we put their the rocks in the fire for a couple hours so they're red hot when they come in, when, when, when you take them out of the lodge. So I always tell them, the grandfathers are giving up their lives here for you to heal that go in here. You know, I always tell, I tell people that, you know, government and policies have have taken our past away. We shouldn't allow it to take, take our future away.

Stuart Murray 50:34

Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, again, I it, you know, thanks for a very brief comment about something that is very emotional, very deep, very meaningful. And I've been blessed. I want to have one sweat with you, and you've offered, we haven't been able to work it out. We'll get that done, Clayton, I know that'll happen. I you know, Clayton, we could go on forever. And you know, it's why I admire every time we have a chance to have breakfast, I always learn something from you. We have some laughs, which is important, you know, that's part of that's part of life, which is great. I mean, we talk hockey, we talk about a lot of things about life. You know, this podcast was, you know, really, with a focus a bit on orange shirt day and, and I'd like to, you know, kind of, as they say, if you tip up that hourglass in the sands of time start to run out on our conversation. If there was one thing that that you wanted to or that maybe I didn't ask you about orange shirt day, that somebody you know listening, if there was something you wanted to leave them with, something a message, a thought, a conversation, a story, what would that be?

Clayton Sandy 51:42

Um, maybe, maybe, um, maybe close your eyes and put yourself in our shoes. You know, having, having, having generations of of your of your parents and your aunties and uncles and your kids taken away from you, like my brother was taken away when he was five years old. Yeah, and went to bertle. He was there for 10 years, maybe so. So it's hard to imagine, because when that was sometimes, when I'm doing my I ask people, How many of us have kids here, our grandkids, you know, put up their hand. Can you imagine, you know, a government coming in and taking your child at five years old and not seeing them for 10 years. What kind of effect would that have on you? And what would you do about it? If you can't do nothing about it? You know, you'd either commit suicide, you drink, you probably give up and and that's what our people have done. And then, you know, residential school started in 1876 and the last one closed in Manitoba, 1996 so look at all the year of our people going through there, and all the and, of course, everybody knows about the Truth and Reconciliation, the graves, the sexual abuse, everything that happened, all that. So it's there, accept it, and let's just move on together, right? Yeah, it's the simplest way I can say that, yes,

Stuart Murray 52:57

yeah. Well, and I mean it, you know, it's because you have the ability, and you know, because you have discovered your journey, and you're so strong as an individual of who you are, you can say those things, and I think that that's an important distinction to make, because you've had some challenges in your life, but you know the you know You've been able to see to either forgive Clayton, or you've been able to understand that, you know, the past is the past, and what you're focused on is the future true. And you know, my friend, that takes a tremendous amount of strength, that takes a tremendous amount of strength. And, you know, I want to just, I want to say, thanks very much, Clayton for finding some time to jump onto this podcast. You know, one of the things I always sort of feel after we always push away from a conversation, I can't wait to the next conversation with you, because I know there will be certain things that that, of course, we didn't talk about and, and, no, I I've been just blessed. If there's one thing that I would say, covid was a challenge for many, many people, and it was some for not very good, but for me, personally, covid allowed me to meet you, and allowed you and I to start a friendship. And for that, I'm very, very grateful, and like on this podcast, I'm gratefully you would find the time to have this conversation with me. So thank you very, very much.

Clayton Sandy 54:23

Was want to say thank you for, you know, for connecting with me. And I think both of both you and I, we have similar journeys. We both work. Our careers, were in government, and, you know, we had our highs and lows, and we never give up. And, and it's always, you know, trying to encourage, encourage something better all the time. And, you know, and, and that's, that's the connection that I made with you. And plus, you know, we like to talk, and we like to get along, and we'd like to see, see things change. And then, so, yeah, so I actually thank covid for I met many people in on covid. And, yeah, so I. Really glad about that so. So thank you so much, Stu for allowing me to come on and to share a little bit, a little bit of my story. But I encourage people just to try and listen to other people's story, you know, and then you'll find that, you'll find that you'll find something in there that that that may touch you and make me make you feel uncomfortable, but, but it's our truth. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, for

Unknown Speaker 55:19

sure. Clayton, thanks so very much. Talk to you soon.

Matt Cundill 55:21

Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to humanrightshub.ca. For Jews. Produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.