When Byron Williams and Taylor Galvin sit down to discuss their unprecedented legal case, one thing becomes clear - they're fighting for something much bigger than themselves. The duo is part of a landmark effort to grant legal rights to Lake Winnipeg under Section 7 of Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms - the first case of its kind in Canada.
In this episode, we explore how traditional Indigenous knowledge and Western legal frameworks are coming together to protect one of the world's largest freshwater lakes. Taylor Galvin, a proud member of the Sturgeon Clan from Broken Head Ojibway Nation, brings spiritual and cultural context to the lake's significance, while veteran public interest lawyer Byron Williams breaks down the legal strategy that could reshape environmental protection across Canada.
We're covering:
Why Lake Winnipeg is considered "sick" and what that means for communities that depend on it
How Manitoba Hydro's 50-year license renewal in 2026 creates a critical window for action
The role of Indigenous women as water protectors and knowledge carriers
Ways that Western science and Indigenous knowledge can work together to heal the lake
This isn't just a story about environmental protection - it's about reconciliation, indigenous rights, and reimagining our relationship with the natural world. As Williams puts it: "I don't think our clients are the radical ones here. I think our clients are asking Manitoba to do what they should have done 50 years ago."
Guests:
Byron Williams - Director, Public Interest Law Center
Taylor Galvin - Graduate Student, University of Manitoba & Indigenous Knowledge Carrier
To learn more about this groundbreaking case, visit the Southern Chiefs' Organization website to read the full Statement of Claim.
Episode Transcript
Stuart Murray 0:00
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji, Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the matthi nation.
Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 0:19
This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.
Stuart Murray 0:31
I started the podcast humans on rights because I really wanted to explore the incredible talent and passion that we have of educators, advocates for the issue of human rights. So when you look at the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, there are these codified human rights issues or laws. But what about our water? What about some of the other elements that are so important for cultures, for people, for communities that don't have the voice that we as humans have. What do we do about that? Well, today, I am delighted to be joined by Byron Williams, who is a legal mind extraordinaire here in the City of Winnipeg, and a very, very passionate First Nations woman, Taylor Galvin, who is equally passionate about trying to ensure that we provide the level of rights to a body of water that we do to human beings. So Byron and Taylor, welcome to humans on rights. Thank you for having us so Byron, let me just start with you. Tell me a little bit about yourself, explain what you're doing with respect to this issue around First Nation South southern cheese organization and Lake Winnipeg.
Byron Williams 1:56
I'm the director of the Public Interest Law Center. We're part of legal aid. Manitoba. I've been around for 30 years, and we mostly represent either nonprofits or First Nations or low income people. And it might be on a human rights matter, an environmental law matter, a consumer matter, or issues relating to indigenous people. And on this case, we've been very blessed. We're actually have two groups of clients. One is the Southern chiefs organization, and the other is a group of of traditional knowledge holders and land users who are very passionate about Lake Winnipeg. They're worried that Lake Winnipeg is dying, that she's under an existential threat, and they know that important decisions are being made about her, including related to Manitoba Hydro, and that our clients are telling the legal team that they want Lake Winnipeg to be protected in important decisions about Lake Winnipeg regulation, and that they believe that Lake Winnipeg is is a living being, and that she needs to be protected under our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Stuart Murray 3:09
I also just want to welcome into this program, Taylor Galvin Taylor, welcome to humans on rights. And just before we get into some of the specifics, if you don't mind introducing yourself and explain what you're doing Bucha
Taylor Galvin 3:22
Ann Dino, am I gonna do Gojo Bucha in digital then baskanda bay with Anishinabe yaki and dingy? So hi bin again. Hello, my relatives. My name is brown buff flow, and I am a very proud member of the sturgeon clan from broken head Ojibway nation here on the southern tip of Lake Winnipeg. A bit about my the work that I do is I'm a graduate student at the University of Manitoba. I'm pursuing my master's degree in environment and geography, looking at how our knowledge systems and indigenous our governance systems and law systems as well. Can help in the protection of sturgeon across Manitoba. And so I do that. And then, aside from that, I do a lot of independent contract work around different workshops, facilitating land based education and working with youth and elders around water protection and land guardianship as well. And so I live and breathe the work that Mother Earth has has placed upon my path. And I'm very grateful to be able to do that and and when approached by by the Southern chiefs organization to be a part of this very monumental piece of work around the advocacy and protection of Lake Winnipeg, it was something I had to go and spend some time with the lake to see if this was the work that was meant for me, and to ask her permission to be able to walk this path with her as well. And so it's been a very beautiful journey, and I'm very honored to be a part of a part of this. But unlike Byron, I've only been around for approximately 30 years. I don't have 30 years. Experience, as he does, but I'm getting up there, and it's been such a delight to work with him and and the rest of his team at at the Public Interest Law Center. And I'm just very honored to be here. So thank you for having me.
Stuart Murray 5:12
Yeah, so Taylor, we off camera, off Mike. We were talking about the Anishinabe name of Lake Winnipeg, and let me try it. And then, you know, please make sure we get it right. This is always an opportunity to learn. I believe the pronunciation that I'm going to try and give it is we need to be key, say gay, say again. We in the B key, Sega, we in A, B, Wena, B, Cage again. Alright, okay. All right. Byron, get give that a go.
Unknown Speaker 5:44
We knew B Kesa Kagan,
Stuart Murray 5:47
very good. Okay, we're all on the same page. Now let's move forward. Taylor, you made reference to the fact that this is monumental, that it is probably and I'm just going to sort of direct this first question to you, Byron, it's monumental, but I would just ask, from your perspective, from a legal perspective, has anything been done like this before, or is it just that groundbreaking?
Byron Williams 6:09
There's no Canadian decision by a court on an issue granting the protection of the charter to a body of water or a piece of land. So this will be the first time in Canada that a court will decide there are important decisions. We've been working with the legal team supporting indigenous people and other communities. In Ecuador, there's great decisions from from India, about the Ganges River, but in terms in Canadian terms, and in terms of a decision by the court, there's been no case like this that a court has made a decision on
Byron. Is it done at the provincial level? The provincial courts?
Byron Williams 6:52
Yeah, we're going to the court of King's bench, which is the the trial court on on important matters in Manitoba. But obviously, if we're successful here, it would have resonance for for other similar important issues across Canada.
Stuart Murray 7:09
And I would suspect that that's exactly right. I you know, when these, you know, I'm gonna, again quote Taylor's comments about being monumental when something of this magnitude comes forward. You know, think there's a lot of others that have wondered, Is there a path forward? And although there's a big discussion in front of us on this issue, but assuming that there's some level of success out of this, it is going to be groundbreaking for the world. I mean, I of course you can talk about Canada and beyond, but you know of other organizations that will be looking at how you reflect the rights of people. I'll just use that as kind of my reference the rights of people, to provide it for something that is does not have a voice the way we do. I think that that's something that would be incredibly important for the world to watch. And I want to bring Taylor into this conversation, because you are very spiritual in you know, kind of how you wake up in the morning and your day. I mean, first and foremost, we refer to winI Biki sagagan As she so you're basically saying she is dying. She needs a voice. How do you feel that you can explain to those that use Lake Winnipeg or have been around it, that she's dying, she needs a voice
Taylor Galvin 8:29
from our perspective, and I speak specifically of just an Anishinabe perspective, not of all the indigenous groups that use Lake Winnipeg and have so for millennia, right? But for many of us, and to those who are non Indigenous, who may not fully understand what we mean by that, is that she is sick and she's she's hurting and she's dying, right? And that's from a lot of contamination. There's been a lot of raw sewage that has been dumped in the lake, the destruction of our wetlands is another reason why she's why she's hurting pollution. There's, you know, a lot of industry around Lake Winnipeg that's harming her. Agricultural runoff. Algae blooms is a really big thing that we're starting to see grow quite quickly. Invasive species is another one. There's also, you know, infringement of our inherent rights and things like that as the original stewards of this land, ever since colonization, and so we've never been fully able to do that work that we were put on this earth to be able to do because of of the imposed laws and regulations that were forced upon us in the relocation as well. And so in order to explain this to people, they have to understand that what Western science fails and lacks to recognize is the spiritual context that we find within the environment and within nature that we know to be true. And I've seen it for. First hand, and it's hard to explain, unless you actually immerse yourself and open your heart and your mind to understanding indigenous knowledge systems. When you finally start to to learn a little bit about who we are and what that spiritual context means that you know that the trees and and the waters and the rocks and the animals, they listen to us, they learn from us, and they teach and guide us. And you spend time out on the land. You're not just going there as a visitor and collecting water samples four times a year, when you actually spend the time and use this one gift that they've gifted us, and that's to listen to listen to the land and listen to the water, you'll start to recognize and you'll start to hear those songs and those prayers and what they're asking of us, and she's asking for our help because she doesn't speak our language, and she's never been given that voice or that choice to be able to protect herself. And so that's the what we're trying to get across as as the knowledge keepers. Or, you know, it's funny, it's it's an interesting thing to call myself that, because I don't feel that, that I've had the experience to be called something so, so grand in our in our ways, but to be a part of this, in that context of being a knowledge carrier, that's, that's the type of recognition that I want people to to start to acknowledge when It comes to this case, and to Lake Winnipeg and all that she has provided to us for 1000s and 1000s of years. Yeah,
Stuart Murray 11:27
thanks so much. I love the spiritual approach Taylor that you just explained. This is a fascinating opportunity Byron to take what Taylor just talked about, sort of that understanding, that spiritual that the knowledge keepers have and are trying to impart upon those who will listen to your legal expertise of looking at taking what Taylor said and putting it into an argument that presumably the courts will have to try to interpret, but before they do That, to understand. And I just wondered, how do you take what she just said and put it into sort of legal terms?
Byron Williams 12:06
Well, we start by understanding that we have to look at our Charter of Rights and Freedoms through a reconciliation prism. And you know, we were mistaught when I was going to school that there were two founding nations for Canada, that they were English and French. And of course, first nations were here before all of us with their own genius in terms of their own legal traditions and their own worldviews. So we start with the humility to know that we've imposed this our charter from two of the founding nations, upon upon the the nations that were here first. So just starting with that recognition and and looking at but the genius of our legal traditions from the western point of view is that they're capable of growth. So what is a charter that truly reflects reconciliation, that truly reflects the treaty relationship. How can it grow to affect the true nature of Canadian constitutionalism? And that's how we're starting trying to approach it from a legal perspective. In the actual Statement of Claim itself, we don't start with the inadequate words of colonial lawyers. We have a great legal team, Public Interest Law Center, and first people's law out of Vancouver. But we start with the words of the knowledge holders. We start with the the words of Taylor describes herself as a knowledge carrier, also a traditional land user. We start with their words. Every section starts with their genius and their insight grounded in their relationship with the land and the water. And then we're trying to give the courts just a glimpse of this profound relationship that is the true founding tradition of this place we call Canada, the true constitutional foundations of our of this land. So that's how we've tried to approach it, and then to draw upon insights from other jurisdictions in Ecuador, they're protecting very special areas, the rain forest, from mining companies using this insight and trying to give protection to our neighbors and to our friends and to our relatives, such as Lake Winnipeg,
Stuart Murray 14:22
one of the things that happens in the summer, you get a notice on the news media, whatever, we're not be able to go to the beaches because there's too much LJ, there's too much bloom. It may not be healthy to go in. It's interesting to me that I'm not sure you know, people understand what that really means. They hear that. And of course, it's a disappointment if you were planning to take your family to the beach. But, you know, I think, Taylor, what you're explaining is that this isn't just sort of a temporary sometimes, if it's hot, sometimes there's issues. This is really talking about the entire body of water, you know, as you refer. But she is sick and is crying for help. What would you like people to take away from the conversations that we're having today? What sorts of things would you like people to learn who normally might even just drive by, say, Lake Winnipeg? Maybe they don't use it, they just drive by about it, or they look at it on a map and they sort of say, wow, it's pretty big body of water, but you're really taking something that is much more personal, much more spiritual, in this conversation.
Taylor Galvin 15:28
What I would like people to take away from this is that you need to understand that Lake Winnipeg, it is one of the largest lakes in the world, right? It's in Top 1112 but what you'll also have to understand is the Lake Winnipeg watershed alone encompasses like four or five provinces and a million square kilometers, so it impacts a lot more people than the ones that are situated just on it, and everything that gets dumped or drained into all of those river systems and tributaries and all of These other bodies of water that are connected to Lake Winnipeg all comes to Lake Winnipeg and vice versa, right? These are water bodies. These are what we refer to as the veins of Mother Earth. It's all connected, all of it, and every single person uses some of this water, whether you're in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Ontario, all of those provinces that are attached to this significantly large watershed. And even if you think that you don't use it, think about the amount of people who do use it. And one of the biggest principles in our traditional law systems is that seven generation principle. And sure, it may not impact you today, but what type of world do you want your grandchildren and your great grandchildren to have? What if they want to have a cabin on Lake Winnipeg? But yet they can't, because the water has been so polluted over the last how many years, that now they don't have access to beaches, to recreation, to fishing, to food, even right in Manitoba, we're fish. We're fish driven people, right? Because, like, there's how many, how many lakes and rivers and water bodies in this province, and so that's what we also have to recognize, because many people, and sometimes even myself included, I'm not saying that I'm not guilty of this, but sometimes we we forget to look at the future, and we always think about what's happening today and if it impacts me directly, or if it impacts those next seven generations, right? And that's something that we need to start getting people to understand, right? You may call it sustainability. We may call it the seven generation principle, but it's all a part of this big, intricate web that we just want to have a good life. We want to seek that Manila bamata, so in that good life for ourselves today, tomorrow and for the future, and
Stuart Murray 17:54
Taylor, for people that might be listening to this conversation or have looked at Lake Winnipeg. Are you suggesting through this, what, Byron, what are we going to call this? This is a it's a Statement of Claim. Statement of Claim. Okay, so this Statement of Claim. Thanks. Byron. So So Taylor, through the Statement of Claim. Is there a sense that people might, you know, misinterpret and say, Oh, are you suggesting that we shouldn't use Lake Winnipeg at all, that we should all step back and just not use Lake Winnipeg. In other words, you know, there's always this notion about where might there be a partnership, and how might you see that, in terms of understanding that, in your terms, she's sick, how do we make her better? And then, how do we continue, as you say, if you look in the future, how do we continue to make sure that she stays well
Taylor Galvin 18:42
in the statement and claim. And I know sometimes that it can get a little bit confusing, like we're saying that that like, oh, we can't. We shouldn't be using it. Nobody can be using it. It should just strictly be First Nations. That's not the way that we work in the way that we look at it. For myself, and I can't speak on behalf of the other group of knowledge keepers that are involved in this, but for myself all, I want accountability of of what has happened for her. I want transparency about what's going to happen for her in the future as well. And I think everybody has the right to water. Everybody has the right to clean water. Everybody has the right to access water when they need it. And so it's not about nobody should be able to use it, but we should be coming together as a collective and having to mitigate the impacts of what has happened to her in the past, and hold those who are responsible for that accountable for their actions, and create this process or this project of being able to reverse those impacts that have harmed her for so long. And that's something that's not going to happen overnight. This is going to take decades of stewardship and conservation and and and restoration impacts that we can all be a part of, right? Whether it's restoring wetlands or, you know, indigenous monitoring. And water stewardship that's leading these conversations, but it's something that we can't just do to by ourselves, and it's something that other people shouldn't do without our input as well, and with without us sitting there side by side at those decision tables about what happens to her as well. And so that's that would be my perspective of it. And like said, I can't speak on behalf of everybody who's involved in this, and I'm not sure if you know, the elders would say something different, but somebody who has walked that world of of Western science and traditional knowledge for a long time, I understand the value of what it means to bring those two worlds together, as long as we have the indigenous science just slightly above that Western science is, it's something that is carried and protected Lake Winnipeg long before. You know, industry has made those impacts, that lasting footprint, on her for a long for a long time.
Stuart Murray 20:53
Yeah, and Taylor, I think, you know, in the Statement of Claim, or even in just the media press releases that the First Nations Organization southern chiefs have put out. It's pretty clear that Western science has also agreed with what the knowledge keepers or what you're saying. So there is kind of a broader perspective on this. If people are interested in learning about it, you speak on behalf of yourself in terms of your perspective, and that's important for anybody listening to know your position. Is there one or two things, if you could change the the narrative, change the way that we're looking at Lake Winnipeg, if there's one or two things you would like to see, is there, and maybe it's five, I don't know about it, just from your perspective, right? Is there something that you would like to see happen immediately, that will obviously, as you say, this is a generational thing. This is not a weekend, a year, a month. This is a long term. But to address something right now, that's
Taylor Galvin 21:51
a big question for right but in terms of this, I would like for people to take away that, that spirituality context of Lake Winnipeg and the significance that indigenous knowledge has, and that it is just as much, if not as imperative to this as that Western science. But I'd also like to make note that you know, before colonization and before you know, all of these things started to impact Lake Winnipeg is, you know, as as indigenous people, we had our own laws and our own governing systems that help protect Mother Earth and all that call her home, and we were the first lawmakers and law keepers of this land. And so this is why we need to be the ones who are leading this work with with in collaboration with those gr with those allies, such as Byron Williams, who does so much work for our First Nations. But there's truth in what our laws and our teachings share with people, because we're still here, right, and we're still doing this work, and we're still walking that spiritual life, and we're still walking those red roads, and we're still using our voices because they failed to silence us. And so there's there's strength and there's courage and there's humility, that's those spirits that are behind us and guiding us to lead this type of work. And I I truly hope that people come together and acknowledge why this is so important, and I hope that we create this grand space for our youth, our elders, our women, to come and stand behind us and stand with us in the protection of Lake Winnipeg today and tomorrow, and for however long this, this, this case may go on for We need all of those voices behind us because we're small in comparison to how much bigger we can be.
Stuart Murray 23:46
Yeah. And again, I appreciate the fact that you know it's a big, big question. I just, you know, love your your approach of how you're thinking about it. And so thank you for sharing that you know, Byron, from your perspective, there's, there's kind of two things I'd love to get your thoughts on. First, if I understand correctly, the Statement of Claim is based on Section seven Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Why section seven? Tell us about that? Yeah, and I'm
Byron Williams 24:11
going to back up for just one second. I just want to remind people that in 1976 immense change was was wrought upon Lake Winnipeg by what we call Lake Winnipeg regulation and Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba government fundamentally altered the lake. They constrain the the water levels. They changed the seasonal variations of the letter, and they they also greatly increased the winter outflow, and that had cascading and really damaging effects on wetlands, which need low water level levels so that they can heal themselves. And Taylor spoke eloquently of how wetlands are the kidneys, how they help to clean the lake, and the the art the interference of Lake, of Lake Winnipeg, regulation. Has interfered with the lake's natural flows, and it's caused cascading damage to the wetlands, to the muskrat, to the waterfall and to the First Nations and other users who rely on it. So that's kind of the starting point. And there was never an environmental assessment of Lake Winnipeg. There was never a chance for anyone to be heard on the impacts of Lake Winnipeg regulation. So just in a couple years, that license needs to be renewed. And our when our clients came to us, they said we need to have a voice for for the lake and a voice for First Nations in this decision. And so when we looked at tools that are powerful in the in the laws and in the Canadian Constitution, and we looked at the spiritual teachings and the the message we've heard from our clients, that Lake Winnipeg is living. In fact, water is life and that she's a living entity, we were looking for something with powerful constitutional teeth that also spoke to the what we'd heard about Lake Winnipeg, right to life, her right to freedom, to have her natural Waterloo water flows, to have her security of the person, to feel safe and protected And to be heard in a fair way, and when we looked at that, the natural resting place for those arguments was section seven of the Charter, which guarantees the right to life, to liberty and to security of the person, and the right not to be deprived thereof, except For in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice. And so the court case is actually resting on two, two concepts. One is Lake Winnipeg. Is a living being, a person worthy of charter protection, but also that the operation of Lake Winnipeg is affecting the rights of the knowledge holders and and traditional land users the Nibi na who are who are coming forward to speak on behalf the lake. So it's the lakes where Charter rights who are affected, but it's also the rights of those who live in intimate relationship with the lake, their right to life and liberty and security as being fundamentally compromised. And that's kind of why section seven seemed to be a good fit, both for the rights of the lake, but also for the rights of elder Mary, elder Robert, elder Emery, and for Taylor, who are who are who see their own constitutionally protected rights compromised by decision making made without First Nation input, where there's never been an environmental assessment. And so we're asking the court to say, before you dare to try and re license that lake have a public process with evidence with full weight to First Nation knowledge and traditions, so that Lake Winnipeg perspective and the perspective of the knowledge folders can be heard long answer, but I hope that helps.
Stuart Murray 28:07
Thank you so much. It's a fantastic answer. How did you get involved in this conversation with the southern chiefs organization?
Byron Williams 28:16
Well, in a couple ways. One is, I was involved in an earlier hearing in in 2015 which was about Lake Winnipeg regulation, but it wasn't an environmental assessment, and I was shocked at how we had disregarded the health of the lakes and how decision making had been Made in the 1970s without regard. We just treated like Winnipeg regulation and as well as Churchill river diversion, almost as an engineering project without regard for the environment. So I was shocked, and it quickly became apparent that decision making at that time was out of step with environmental thinking, or thinking of relationships with indigenous people and and modern decision making. So that was kind of and then the southern chiefs organization approached us just a couple years ago, and they asked, What can we do for Lake Winnipeg, and what can we do in a way that respects her rights and the role of First Nations as stewards. And so we were greatly honored at that we didn't quite know how to approach it. So we got some of the best legal minds in Canada together with First Nation representatives, and we did a workshop on different options to try and protect Lake Winnipeg, and this is what we came up with.
Stuart Murray 29:43
You know, a lot of people have ideas about something. People say, Oh, we should do this, or we should do that. I mean, the southern chiefs organization has moved from a conversation into looking to take action. And I don't know Byron if you can answer this, or or perhaps. Yes again, just from your perspective. Also Taylor, why do you think the southern chiefs decided to act now?
Byron Williams 30:05
They'll have to speak for themselves, and maybe that's a future podcast. But I think two or three things are happening at the same time. One is that Lake Winnipeg is is so sick, and she's been on the the most threatened lakes in the world list since at least 2013 Secondly, and again, I don't speak for them, but secondly, there's we're starting to better understand how important it is to have First Nations leadership and their perspective in decision making. That affects this place we call Manitoba. And then finally, there's a window of opportunity, because that 50 year license for Lake Winnipeg regulation expires in August of 2026 and this is our chance. Like do we want to just give Manitoba Hydro another free 50 years with with very minimal environmental constraints, or do we want to look at a way of decision making for Lake Winnipeg that that better respects her? Again, I'm reluctant. I can't speak for the southern chiefs, but this is my as an outsider. Those are the three factors that that I'm aware of,
Stuart Murray 31:20
and then Byron, just the fact that this agreement is coming up or is expiring. Is it possible to just sort of explain who signed the agreement, and how is it that you, from a legal perspective, can position a statement a claim? I'm assuming the southern chiefs are not part of the initial agreement? No
Byron Williams 31:41
and and what it is is it's a license under the water power act done without environmental assessment, 50 years to Manitoba hard hydro to operate like Lake Winnipeg. And that was granted by the Minister responsible for the Water Power Act. And so that license was granted in 1976 it expires in August of 2026 and again, I'm not qualified to speak for the southern chiefs, but the idea that you could make a critical 50 year decision as important for Lake Winnipeg without hearing from Lake Winnipeg and without hearing from her perspective, especially when there's never been an environmental assessment, I think that was very concerning to our clients, and so they they asked, how do we make do our best to ensure that her health is perspective protect, that her health is protected, but also that her voice is heard in all these critical decisions relating to the next 50 years for Lake Winnipeg.
Stuart Murray 32:49
You know, one of the things that I suspect that a lot of people, when they think about Lake Winnipeg and they think about hydro, I'm sure a lot of people, and I'd love to get both of you to respond to this, where people would say, but we need hydro. Hydro provides all of this power for Manitobans. It's a it's a way to generate more revenue. We sell it to others that don't have the ability to to have power as into the United States, etc. And I think that, you know, sometimes these discussions, these conversations, get that it has to be one way or another, as opposed to it's not a matter of saying yes or no to hydro. It's a matter of saying, Listen to a voice that hasn't been brought forward to a conversation you know Taylor from your perspective, share how you feel that conversation might go with somebody that would sort of say, are you saying we don't need high more hydro? No
Taylor Galvin 33:44
one is asking hydro to remove all their dams and do all this work, because that would just cause a lot more destruction. Anyways, because they've been manipulating the waters for a long time. And I gotta bite my tongue on certain things here, I've been working with a lot of hydro impacted communities for most of my, my post secondary career, and so I've seen a lot of harm that can be caused, right? And so what I think a lot of people need to realize is that we're asking for a change in behavior from hydro, right? And that's that's, ultimately what it comes down to, is, is to have more respect for the land and for Lake Winnipeg and all the water systems that they that they use, but at the same time, also take into account that that reciprocity, that's a big part of that indigenous knowledge system as well what you take, you have to give back in return. And they've taken so much from the water over however long it's been that it's time to reciprocate back and provide those assessments, or provide the First Nations with what they need. And what other people need to understand is that I know you need hydro. I know you need electricity. I do too, but you have to understand that all of that hydro, every single time you turn on a light, turn on your TV, listen to your car, that's at the expense of. First Nations communities in northern Manitoba, and if you've never seen them, I highly suggest you do before you start asking those questions, because there has been detrimental effects and impacts of displacement, of of harm to our nations in in a lot of different things that I'm not going to blurt out. But it is at the expense of our own people. We're the ones who have to face those repercussions of what happens, and we still do every single day, I sit at these tables with my with my northern relatives, all the time with with a lot of different government represented organizations about what we have to face, the imperative impacts that that our nations are facing. And so that's what I want people to to recognize that I know you need lights, I need lights, but every term time you turn on a light, thank a First Nation in northern Manitoba for that, right.
Stuart Murray 35:57
And you know, when you talk about reciprocity from your perspective, can you share what that would look like for you when you talk about reciprocity, from what's happened with the use of Lake Winnipeg? Yeah,
Taylor Galvin 36:10
I would like to see more restorative projects start to take place, right? We have natural cleaners of the water, and like Byron and I have said before, why are we not being more proactive in in helping her heal? Why aren't we restoring wetlands? Why aren't we doing more indigenous led stewardship projects and initiatives and things like that. You know, whether it's water monitoring or fish sampling, all of those things they do cost money. And I know of a I know of an industry or two that has a lot of that here in Manitoba, that can be actually utilizing those funds that they make off the expense of people to help restore what's been lost in Lake Winnipeg. And that's what I'd like to see from, from that Western perspective that I've been trained in. But I'd also like to see more ceremony and more that spiritual context in it as well. Yeah,
Stuart Murray 37:06
thanks Taylor for that. Byron, you know, you're putting together this legal document. You understand how the courts work. You understand that process. If somebody say, and I'll just say, from the other side, I mean, the same kind of question I just posed to to Taylor, but you know, from a legal standpoint, you know, we've got hydro. I mean, I love Taylor's comment about, it's not about taking something down, you know, because that's more destructive, but to the point of saying we need hydro, and you know, what you're suggesting is going to put a huge strain, or or cause a problem for some of the opportunities we have for the advancement of hydro.
Byron Williams 37:41
Well, I think this may be a controversial position in in modern times, but I think when we're making public policy decisions, we should always start with truth and with evidence, and we never and and so we should be actually the starting place would be, what are the impacts of the operation of Lake Winnipeg regulation on this lake, on the wetlands, on the muskrat that drown in the winter. Start with the truth and the evidence, and then you can start looking at options. What are some options? So a well known Western scientist, Dr Gordon Goldsboro has suggested building in a couple of drought years every 20 years, so the wetlands can reheat, start to heal themselves, and so that they can help to start clean the lake. Look at those options. Look at at the the the environmental, social and economic trade offs in those options, and then talk about priorities and and if we want to do that, to me, that's good public policy decision making. I don't think our clients are the radical ones here. I think our clients are asking Manitoba the courts, but Manitoba and Manitoba Hydro to do what they should have done 50 years ago, and have an honest, evidence based decision, and then look at the options, and then let's have a frank conversation and and be mindful of everyone's rights, including the right of one of our most important relatives, like Winnipeg, and, of course, our treaty partners and other people who rely on the lake. So as I said, I start out by saying this might be controversial. I don't think it is. I think it's about truth and about evidence and about a respectful approach to the treaty and to our constitutional relationships that should have been done 50 years ago, not in 2024
Stuart Murray 39:40
Byron, again, I'm not sure you know if you can answer this, because, I mean, there's a Statement of Claim. It's a live document, it's a legal document, but you know, you talk about having conversations and having input and having other voices, would it be your hope that perhaps out of the Statement of Claim, that government looks at it and says, We need. To have more voices at the table, and one of them, of course, Lake Winnipeg, but those voices can be heard through elders and knowledge keepers and others who have been a part of this statement, acclaim.
Byron Williams 40:13
Yeah. And you know, again, I can't speak for the clients, but I'm sure the starting point would be, do we have to go to trial? Or could the province and hydro be working with nations and with knowledge holders and with traditional land users so that, like Winnipeg, voice is heard, and that we have a process that we can be confident that's the starting point, strictly speaking, as a lawyer, I think the hope would be that the province and Manitoba Hydro have the courage to go to trial on this matter, and they don't see seek to delay this internibally, as we often see government do, if you believe so strongly that that you're in the right let's go to trial, and let's See Manitoba see if they have the courage to try and deny that Lake Winnipeg is a living entity with rights that are as important as any that we have protected under the charter. So option one and desirable always is to have a constitutionally compliant reconciliation focused process outside the legal system. Option two is, bring it on. Let's go to court. Let's have a real trial on these issues. Let's hear from tell Taylor and elders, Emory and Mary and Robert, and let's hear from the scientists, because I think there'll be a pretty consistent narrative and a very powerful one we would like the courts to hear.
Stuart Murray 41:42
You know, I went on to the southern chiefs organization, and there is the Statement of Claim is available on their website. If anybody wants to look at that document, it is public. So that's something that I'll make sure that gets put into the Episode notes. If somebody said is saying, Whoa, what's the Statement of Claim? I'd like to know more about it. Taylor to you, if somebody's listening to this and was saying, you know, there's so much information I've heard here, but how can I get involved in what is happening with respect to this conversation? I know it's a legal document. I understand that, but how could they get involved in supporting what you're doing?
Taylor Galvin 42:18
I think that's something that we're working on right now, though, right Byron, please, please correct. I don't want to tell people to do something and then SEO and we all decide to go to a different direction, fair enough, like, because I think right now we're working on that, that communication strategy of how we're going to get more people involved in and so at this time, you know that's something we're still working on, but you know that this is something that's in existence and something that's available. So have those conversations about what's going on. You know, there's a lot of users water users that that use Lake Winnipeg, and so just having those conversations to to begin with, and and recognizing who's spearheading this movement to do that, and those partners and and just, you know, just keeping up to date with what we're working on right now. But aside from that, there's nothing in particular that I can specifically touch base on right now, unless Byron knows a little bit more about that. But I just, I don't want to give any false information fair
Stuart Murray 43:20
enough. Taylor, appreciate that.
Byron Williams 43:22
I think that campaign will be led by the Southern chiefs, and I would say, stay tuned, because I think they'll be sharing their vision when they're ready to. But I expect relatively near future.
Stuart Murray 43:38
No, fair enough. I appreciate that. I just, I just thought I'd ask you to see in case somebody's hearing and saying I'd like to, I'd like to get involved. So Byron Williams and Taylor Galvin, thank you for this. I'm going to ask both of you the same question. I'll, I'll start with you, Taylor, and then I'll flip it over to you, Byron. But is there anything I didn't ask you on this podcast that you wanted a chance to talk about,
Taylor Galvin 44:01
I would just like to just make note, finally, about, you know, the importance of our women being involved in this case. As for the Anishinabek people, the women are the carriers of the water, the protectors of the water, and those who carry those teachings and ceremonies about the water, and so being able to be a part of this with elder Mary as well is a really big step forward in this type of work, allowing Indigenous women to be the voice for the water, because that's what we were set out to do. And as we move forward with with having people involved in whatever strategy we decide to make, just know that I will always be putting the voices of our of our younger generations and our elder generations, of of our women at the forefront of of speaking on behalf of the lake.
Stuart Murray 44:51
Thanks for that, Taylor. And to you Byron, I guess
Byron Williams 44:55
I actually want to follow up on Taylor, and we just have three of. Amazing elders that we're working with, elder Emory, elder Robert and and elder Mary, and they have such rich experiences, whether fishing, living for living on Lake Winnipeg or or hunting on Lake Winnipeg or elder Mary has been gifted with a amazing water song that has been heard all over the world and and I just want to highlight, lawyers are rarely humble. I have a very gifted colleague, Kate Gunn from first people's law in Vancouver, that we've been working with. But we are particularly humble in this case, and we're we're kind of just the technocrats this case is being driven by the Southern chiefs organization with our amazing knowledge holders, or in Taylor's case, knowledge carriers. And we're very humbled to be in this role, and we think it's a dialog that we hope that we'll look back on five or 10 years from now and see us the start of a fundamentally important conversation and and a different way of looking at our constitutional rights through a reconciliation prism. So thank you for this. Well,
Stuart Murray 46:15
to both of you, thanks for taking time for this humans on rights conversation. I love the the way that Taylor started it off, uh, just talking about something that's monumental, and it is. And certainly there will be many who are listening to this podcast. I can tell you this one who is on this podcast. Me, I'm going to watch this very, very carefully, and I wish you all all the very, very best as you, as you do something that you're passionate about, that you believe is the right thing to do, and an opportunity, frankly, for all of us to learn a little bit more about this fabulous place that we tend to take for granted, that we call home, that we call Mother Earth. So thank you both for taking the time to talk with me this afternoon. Thank
Matt Cundill 46:55
for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode, humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca. Produced and distributed by the sound off media company you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai