Erna Buffie: Out on a Limb

Stuart Murray sits down with Winnipeg writer, filmmaker, and environmental advocate Erna Buffie. After more than two decades producing science documentaries for CBC's The Nature of Things, Erna has turned her attention closer to home — documenting why Winnipeg's urban forest is in crisis, and what it will take to save it. Her book Out on a Limb makes the case that trees aren't a civic amenity. They're essential infrastructure.

We're talking:

• Why Winnipeg — despite its iconic canopy of elms — scores among the lowest of major Canadian cities for greenness, and what's driving that decline

• The health benefits of urban trees and the argument for treating trees as infrastructure: for every $1 invested in a tree, the city sees $6 in benefits

• Why "we'll just plant more" isn't the answer — and why it takes a minimum of 10 years for a sapling to deliver even a fraction of what a mature tree provides

• The case for a private tree bylaw — why more than 700 cities have passed them, and why Winnipeg has been reluctant to follow

As Erna puts it, trees aren't just a pretty way to beautify a city. They cool the air, capture pollutants, absorb rainwater, support biodiversity, and help us build the kind of climate resilience we're going to need. The science is clear. What's missing is political will.

“Out on a Limb” is out now. There will be a book launch event on Wednesday May 20, 7:00 pm, at McNally Robinson in Grant Park

Check out Out on a Limb

Learn more about Trees Please Winnipeg

Episode Transcript:

Stuart Murray 0:00

This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands, on treaty one territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe Cree Oji Cree Dakota and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis nation.

Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 0:20

This is humans on rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray,

Stuart Murray 0:31

today on the podcast, we're joined by Winnipeg writer, filmmaker and environmental advocate Erna Buffy, after more than two decades producing science documentaries for the landmark series, the nature of things. She has turned her attention to the future of our cities. Her recent book, out on a limb, explores why urban forests and green spaces are essential, not just for the environment, but for healthier, more equitable communities. Erna buffing brings a powerful mix of storytelling, science and civic engagement to the conversation about how cities must adapt in a changing climate. Erna Buffy, welcome to humans on rights.

Erna Buffie 1:11

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Stuart Murray 1:15

So Erna, just for those people that are listening, would you mind just maybe just introducing yourself, tell us a little bit about yourself, and maybe some of the I know you've written a book, we're going to get to that, but some of the things you're working on, and let's, let's let listeners know a little bit about earn a Buffy.

Erna Buffie 1:32

I'm a winna pigger born. I lived in Montreal for 20 years, in Halifax for seven, so I've seen a little bit of the country. And as you mentioned, I I made, for years, I made or directed films for the nature of things, which was just, it's such a great program to work for, and it's such a great opportunity to do really important films my activity, or my actions around climate change, kind of came out of doing one of those films.

Stuart Murray 2:02

You're pretty racing through the alphabet on me here, from A to Z. I mean, you know, you mean you've been a documentary filmmaker for the nature of things. I mean, most people are aware of that. How do you become a documentary filmmaker for the nature of things? What got you interested in that whole subject matter?

Erna Buffie 2:19

Well, I started out working at the National Film Board in Montreal. At a certain point, I realized that if I was going to write and direct, I needed to move more towards television. So that's how, that's how my long history with the nature of things came about. And you know, since then, since that first film, I've made films about medicine. I've made films about about nature. Those are sort of the two primary areas that I worked in over the course of my career. But the last film I did, which was Smarty plants, is like it was such a great experience, because I got to meet people like Suzanne Simard, who you know, is doing this extraordinary research in BC about tree mother trees and communication and transference of resources between trees and in a forest. It's a total flip on the competitive model, and suddenly you start seeing trees as cooperative, interactive, interlinked community. It was a great career, and when I stopped, I produced for a while, other people's work, and then I decided I wanted to write. So I actually wrote a novel first, and then moved on to writing newspaper op eds. But you've been passionate.

Stuart Murray 3:45

You know, the thing that that came comes across, I mean, I obviously, you know, in our episode notes and through our social media, we'll make sure that people can go to your website to see some of the things that you've done. Because you're very prolific, you write, you produce, you're an advocate, you but you're passionate. You know, I'd love to explore during this conversation is, where does that passion come from? How did you start to I mean, you're a winnipegger, you've seen part of Canada, you've seen part of the world. But to be passionate about a subject matter is one thing, but to deliver it through mediums like film and then to write about it, and there's, there's a lot going inside the mind of Erna Buffy that is coming out in many different ways, and that's a good thing. But how did that all start? You know,

Erna Buffie 4:31

I think it started when I started working for the nature of things. I mean, I come from an unusual family, a matriarchy, basically, and was always really pushed by my parents to be socially active and socially engaged and socially responsible. And so I went into film and and film, it the nature of things with those kind of values already. And then I made a film called One Ocean, the changing sea, which was about. The impact of climate change on the world's oceans. And it was at that point I understood the science, I understood the problem, but I don't think I'd ever touched the reality of it until I make made that film. And I think you know, for me, it was a natural movement from the sea to the land, and those natural systems that are working hard for us trying to deal with the amount of CO two we're spewing into the air. So when I came moved back to Winnipeg, that sort of became my passion, that I got involved in my community, my local community group, the Woolsey Residents Association. I headed up their green their greening committee. We built a community garden now. Now I'm with trees please, and we're, you know, we've pushed the city to increase its urban forestry budget by 45% congratulations, which is a huge, huge win, huge win for urban forestry and for us now, we're looking at ways to convince the city that they need to address the fact that somewhere between 80 and 90% of our trees are actually on public land and need protection. And they're they're very reluctant. They have been very reluctant to take that action, which is unfortunate.

Stuart Murray 6:22

One of the things I think I had another conversation with another podcast guest that talked about the kind of the urban forest around grant. And you know, where does that sit? And how do you kind of make that a place that will be preserved? And this is your kind of conversation? Irma Erna, in the sense that you're not asking City Hall to do something that, that it wouldn't be good for the city, in the sense of of the the fact it's on public land. But what's your sense of what the concern is about? I'm not protecting those trees on

Erna Buffie 6:58

public land, on private land. I'm private land. I'm sorry, yeah, I think it's about, I think it's about the relationship the city has with development and construction. And I understand, you know, cities need to be built. There's, I'm not naive about that, and sometimes trees have to be taken down to do that. But it's gotten to the stage now where we're people are starting to estimate, we don't have accurate counts yet, that we're actually losing more trees to construction than we are to disease and attrition. So that's a huge issue. And you know, for a city that was noted in the stats can review of greenness in cities is one having one of the lowest greenness scores of all the major cities in in Canada. That's a big issue. That's a that's a huge issue.

Stuart Murray 7:52

Yeah, Erna I you know, it's interesting. You would say that, because, you know, for those of us that are, you know, fortunate enough to be able to fly in an airplane in and out of Winnipeg. There's no question, when you fly into Winnipeg during the summer, particularly, you know, it's kind of, there's this canopy of green. I mean, you, you know, we're, in my mind, we're quite well known for that, yeah, but, but that your concern is that that canopy is starting to disappear.

Erna Buffie 8:15

Yes, that's my concern. And, you know, an urban forestry strategy, 20 year strategy was was written, and part of what the the goals of that strategy are is to increase our canopy from 17% to 24% and also to ensure that that those plantings and that action is equitably distributed. Because, you know, I grew up in the West End, and the West End has just been decimated. Its canopy has been decimated because I believe that didn't have enough money. Those trees weren't getting replaced. They had an 80% backlog, and that's slowly changing. But the problem is, on the one hand, we have trees going in the ground. On the other hand, the mature trees that are delivering the biggest benefits, too, many of them are getting taken down and not taken down because they're unhealthy or because they're just too old, but being taken down to make way for, you know, suburban developments and mega houses, and it's really unfortunate. And as I say, I'm not naive about it. I know some of those trees have to come down, but you know, in the book, there's one chapter in which I go on a walkabout with with Hugh Penn warden in the community of Wildwood here. And it's a really unique community, because this visionary guy, bird of bird construction, decided that he was going to try to keep as many trees as possible on his property. And you know, you talk to the people there, and it's like they live in heaven. They have this incredible park outside their houses with just sidewalks. It's so it's pedestrian friendly, it's kid friendly. And then he. Who has gone on to basically recreate a huge chunk of the riparian forest along the river that that had been cut back over the years. So he was great. I mean, Hughes line is, I want to get rid of as much grass as possible. So he, you know, either through planting or through creating no mo zones, you know, they've, they've just done remarkable work in terms of treating their neighborhood and, you know, people ask, why is that important? Well, it's important because of all the benefits trees provide. You know, they cool the air, they capture, pollute toxic particles in pollution. They, you know, absorb rainwater. They, they, they allow the ground to absorb rainwater. So, you know, in a climate situation of extreme weather, you know, as 80 scientists said to cop therapy, this is the best natural means we have to enhance climate resiliency in our cities. Trees are, you know, right up there with wetlands in terms of, in terms of sequestering carbon, but but even more significantly, helping us deal with the kind of extreme weather that's coming at us as a result of climate change. So that was kind of the message trees please was pushing, you know, trees aren't just a pretty way to prettify the city. They're essential infrastructure.

Stuart Murray 11:27

And I think that that is a great point that you make in this Erna, because, you know, the there's been lots of conversations. I don't know how you feel about it, but, you know, down Broadway, they put the lights on the trees, right? They light them up. Yeah. Some people look at that and say, you know that again, a beautification. You know, looks great. Others would sort of say trees were never meant to have lights on them, or they would have been born with lights on them. Do you have a sense about that?

Erna Buffie 11:55

It's festive. I mean, it's, it's part of what. It's part of why we love trees. We dress them up like we dress up our dogs to make the city more beautiful, especially in the winter, when you know our deciduous forest has lost its leaves. It's yeah, I mean, you have to be careful around trees, more careful, I think, than people recognize and certainly more careful than the construction industry is,

Stuart Murray 12:23

yeah, but it's, you know, Ernest, it's interesting, right? Because I know people that live in Wildwood Park, and I know at one point they were looking at where they would maybe, you know, their family was growing. They didn't know, maybe they should move. And of course, they do your due diligence. You look around and sort of some of the newer houses and different things. And, of course, one of the biggest issues always in these newer developments is people look and say, These trees are, like, six feet tall. I mean, they're planting them. I get it, and they're not being critical. But just saying that, if you have a family, some those are, you know, something that you think about, you know, trees and and the, you know, the forest side of things. Yeah.

Erna Buffie 13:03

I mean, I think that there are suburbs in Winnipeg that are trying very hard to correct that, that either have forests nearby, that they're looking at stewarding or planting trees because they're so bereft of them. But, you know, that's one of the benefits of trees. I mean, I write about that in the book, it's it increases property values like there's nothing like walking up to a house that's got a gorgeous, 50 to 100 year old tree sitting on it. You know, one of the things I think people forget is that we have an intimate connection to nature. I don't even think we recognize it as that, and I think that's why, you know, things like Not, not just property values go up, but, you know, studies have been done showing that trees line streets lined with trees that have businesses on them, they do better business, and it's because you can stroll down the street in the hot summer sun, and you're still cool, right? You can find shade. And as you know, global warming continues, that's going to become more and more important to our cities. Let's just talk a

Stuart Murray 14:19

little bit about your book out on a limb, which, which is obviously available and very interesting. And if you had the option, earn up, you're a filmmaker, a documentary filmmaker. Are you going to make a documentary out of the book? Is that something you would see? Does that make sense? I mean, did you choose one medium over the other to try and get the message out? Yeah, I

Erna Buffie 14:37

don't think I would. I don't think it's the right subject for film. And to be honest with you, it's a relief to be able to write in long form about these about these issues. It allows you, you know, time to reflect on your own relationship to the natural world and and why you're so passionate about making. Making sure that this canopy is not only protected but expanded, you know, not just for us, but for our kids and our grandkids. So, you know, it's interesting when Mitch and Emma approached me about writing the book for the city series project, or the city project, rather, I was reluctant, because I thought, Oh, my God, this is like such an onerous task. I got so much information in my head. There's so much more research I would have to do. And then I thought it just seemed like a natural progression to do it. And in the end, as I say in the acknowledgements, it was one of the happiest writing experiences of my career, because you have the time to connect dots in a way that you don't when you're just sort of moving through it and advocating for it and that kind of thing. It gave me an opportunity to throw out ideas I've had for a long time, but never had an opportunity or a place to put them.

Stuart Murray 15:57

So you're a storyteller, amongst many things. How would you take the information, the professional information that you have gathered, the scientific information you've gathered, Irma, and I'm just sort of thinking as from an educational standpoint of getting you so I'll always say younger people. But maybe that's not a good way to do it. But let me just say younger people. How would you have a conversation with younger people so that they really started to see the importance of what your research and what is shown about the importance of trees, and the relationship we have to have with trees versus I think a lot of time, people just take these things for granted.

Erna Buffie 16:37

I think young people are already more aware than my generation is. I know lots of young people who are doing extraordinary work. I mean the and, you know, I think of young as 30 to 40,

Stuart Murray 16:51

yeah, yeah. No, no, hey, it's all relative. I hear ya. I love it,

Erna Buffie 16:54

yeah, yeah. I've worked with three young women on four, actually, on trees, please. They were the founders of the organization because they're watching their trees coming down in Glen elm three of them and were distressed by it and wanted to do something about it, so they called together community groups from all over the city, and this was in 2019 literally a few weeks after treemageddon, after the ice storm that decimated so many trees in Winnipeg, so it the timing was perfect. There are lots of young people who are socially engaged. How would I turn on young people who weren't aware of it or know of it? I mean, I would, I would give them the book. I'd say, you know, read this. This is, this is something tangible, something you can do right now. You know, this isn't some airy fairy thing. This is something you can do to make your neighborhood, your community, more climate resilience. Go out and plant trees. You know, connect with people who are planting trees.

Stuart Murray 18:06

When you you look at trees as kind of the infrastructure of a city, and you talk about that in your book, out on a limb, how Erna, do you get the, I'll just say, the policy decision makers, the politicians, the Civic politicians. How do you get them to really engage in that when they're going through a budgetary process and and maybe, maybe you're going to say to me, I've done that. I'm not sure, but I'm curious to see. Because, you know, infrastructure in a budget, in a city budget, you know, water, roads, policing, all the different things that go into it. You know what you're suggesting, and you've got scientific proof and 85 scientists who've written open letters, and you've been an advocate for this pretty much all your professional life. How do you how do you just get politicians to look at this and sort of just put it, make sure that it's in a line item under infrastructure is is is force. What would you call it forestry? Would you call it urban forest? What would you what we deem it to be

Erna Buffie 19:06

urban forest? What we did was between 2019 and 2021, we trees please, appeared at almost every budget meeting urging the city to increase urban forestry's budget, along with that, bringing the educational stuff, we thought they needed to hear about the benefits of trees, about how, you know, trees aren't just an esthetic ornament in the city. They're functional infrastructure. They actually, you know, for every dollar invested a tree. In a tree, you get $6 in benefits. It's a no brainer. You know, roads are just a money pit. Trees actually, actually make money for a city.

Stuart Murray 19:53

So let's, can you just kind of spend a bit of time on that? Erna, because that's important. I mean, many people look at things. Versus expenses, versus investments. So $1 invested in a tree, $6 return. Just walk us through that. What does that look like? What's that return like?

Erna Buffie 20:10

It's pretty remarkable, and it's but it's it's hard for people to grasp until they understand or internalize what trees are doing, you know, like in terms of making the city more climate resilient, it was a struggle, like we went to constantly to council requesting that they put more money in turbine forestry. Finally, the 2022, election rolls around and we think, Well, wait a minute, it was actually Chris Green, who's an epidemiologist, who said, Let me crunch the numbers like, let me use city soap and data and use another reliable source of data, and I'll crunch the numbers and see how many trees have been lost, Ward by Ward and neighborhood by neighborhood. So he did that. And I mean, he I was gobsmacked when I saw it. I mean, because our area here in Wolsey West End had lost 3000 trees. St Boniface had lost fourth, more than 4000 trees. Minar ski had lost 4000 trees. It was astonishing. And so we thought, okay, we've got this information. It's been so hard to communicate the problems, the state of the urban force, the problems that we were facing to council Well, let's show them these. This data on councilor by councilor, Mayor, mayoral candidate, my mayoral candidate, plant two trees for every tree, tree loss, get on a pruning seven year pruning cycle and protect trees better during construction and development. Those were the three. Well, you know, in the book I write about a community event I attended and and presented this information, and the two counselors who were there were gobsmacked, like, it was just like, what, what? And in this one in particular, they didn't have a ton of elms, they, you know, but they had a huge number of ash trees. And what's coming at us is the emerald ash borer, and that's that's a big deal, because the ash borer can lead to catastrophic collapse of a tree. I mean, they've got to be as soon as the ash borers has started burrowing into those trees, they have to be taken down. So they had a big elm ash population. And I was saying, You guys sit around and do nothing. This is what's going to happen to this neighborhood. You know, you're going to lose 50% of your canopy in one fell swoop. So I think that really and then going to them, each of them, all the candidates, and saying, you know, here's your ward. This is what's being lost. Will you sign the pledge? And in the end, all but one of the newly elected councilors had signed the pledge, and then they delivered in the budget, they actually increased the budget by 45% which, you know, Martha the chief Forster, Martha barwinski, even she was shocked by the increase. I mean, it was incredibly satisfying. A lot of it has to do, I think, with why we've been successful is because we've been driven by the data. We've been driven by the science. We've consistently appeared at Council trying to educate people about why this is an important issue. And, yeah, so it was great. We were very, very, very happy. But now we have a bigger fish to fry, which is protecting trees on

Stuart Murray 23:50

private land. So couple of things there are. Number one is always the quote, unquote, the power of the people, the citizen. How does the citizen get involved in shaping things, getting things done. You've given an exact example of how you've gone about it, with trees, please, the community, the citizens, getting involved, engaging politicians, seeing things that are enacted in through budgetary process, which is fantastic. So, you know, congratulations. And I always sort of just spend a moment of time on that earner. Because, you know, things don't always go that way, right? I mean, a lot of times people have great ideas. And, I mean, they just, they just, they get shut down and, and, I mean, you know, most decisions always are evolve, not surprisingly, around financing, around money, how much money do we have? What do we have available? And to have the success story that you had, you know, really is something I think that is worth just pausing and sort of saying congratulations, because it is something that was a grassroots, you know, organization that did something and, you know, I mean, you got all but one of the newly elected councilors to sign on. That's pretty historic. I mean, that's pretty amazing. So. You know, when you think about those sorts of things. Erna, I know we're going to get to the the issue around private land in a second. But just just, do you feel? Can you take your I'll just use the vernacular expression, can you take your foot off the gas pedal on that issue of the urban forest? You feel that that's in good hands going forward? Or it's like, oh my goodness, every year, we've got to go back and do a double check and make

Erna Buffie 25:22

sure it's a very easy thing to have fall off the list of priorities. So no, I don't think that struggle is over. I think once this four year budget is over, it looks like they're going to be moving forward on the same footing. I mean, they've committed to a seven year pruning cycle, and they're planting trees, not two to one, at one to one, but, you know, they've opened up a grant system called home grown, which communities can go to to get money to plant trees. So, you know, it's creeping up around two to one, but it's not there. Yeah, I mean, I think that these are long term struggles, and I'm not sure why. Like, I am a bit befuddled sometimes by council and what their priorities are. But, you know, maybe I'm being naive. I mean, they're dealing with the power brokers. That's what they pay attention to. And like one counselor said to us, you got to make a lot of noise to get us to pay attention. We get a lot of people on board for us to pay attention. So I don't think that struggles are over at all. And I certainly don't think those struggles are over for the few remaining areas of intact forests we have. I think residents, communities need to be very aware of the fact that the forests they love, whether it's I mean, I don't think anything will happen to Assiniboine, but like the fight for the LeMay forest, the fight for the forest bois de spree on the Seine, it's really important that people get involved in stewardship of those pockets of natural land that we still have, that we still have intact, and that provides so much in terms of human health. I mean, one of the things we haven't touched on is the remarkable benefits trees and green spaces have on human health, both mental and physical, and especially for children, especially for kids. I mean, they found that even kids that living in a neighborhood with trees actually fights obesity because kids are outside in the summertime and running the streets, and they're just more active, you know the ancient practice of Shinran Yoku in Japan? Well, they've actually studied that, and they found that just being around the aerosols released by trees activates your killer cells that form your resistance to you know whether it's cancer cells or viruses. So you know the health benefits are on that basis alone. And one of the things in the city charter, one of the one of the first things in the city charter, is to protect human health and well being. So when you look at those benefits of trees, the benefits to our health, the benefits to our kids, you know, some of the studies done on children have even looked at the impact of playing in natural areas on their behavior, that it has just a remarkable calming effect on kids just to be out playing in a forest.

Stuart Murray 28:43

And I think, you know, Erna, those, you know, what you just mentioned, you know, which is, you kind of, as you say, at some point, becomes, you look at and say, What's a no brainer, right to sort of have more trees. However, the trouble is that there is, you know, you a lot of people get kind of called a tree hugger and, you know, but that's not a positive, you know, usually it's not in done in a positive way, you know, it means, it means something negative, you know. And, and yet, you look at it and say, I mean, if you really want to sort of sit down and have a real conversation, doesn't even have to be that cerebral, just a real conversation about trees. What I mean, what's the negativity? I mean, yes, maybe a root starts to kind of cause some shifting in a house or something. But I'm just saying that the overall, you know, conversation around trees pretty hard to find something negative.

Erna Buffie 29:37

I guess part of it is nature blindness, like we walk down the street and we we don't even register that there's trees there, or that there's a forest down the way over there. Why that happens? I don't really have an adequate answer for why people are so it's so easy for them to cut. Countries, whether it's in their yard or whether it's a forest at Damon farm that's going to come down because they're doing yet another development. I don't know why. I think developers are starting to get the message. And of course, there are developers who are working hard to try to be environmentally responsible and but there are others who just don't give a damn. It's like it's my land. I can do whatever I want with it. Well, no, that's not true that trees are a public good. It might be your land, but those trees have been around for, you know, 150 200 years, and just cutting them down because it's convenient, or cutting them clear, cutting them and ripping off the top soil on top of that. I mean, even our province does that. When they built the St Mary's interchange, they took down a whole forest. We're still they took all the topsoil, you know, so what's what's left to grow in? I don't get it, but I there are developers who are very aggressive, and there are those who are trying to do a good job, and I need to acknowledge that I can't paint them all with a, you know, with the scarlet letter.

Stuart Murray 31:20

Yeah, no, for sure. But Erna, what about when people would say, and, I mean, you know, without, so okay, we cut these trees down. Okay, oh, yeah, but we're gonna plant others. Oh, okay, you're gonna plant others, you know. And then you just kind of go on, okay, so you know that that seems to almost mask the issue. Oh, we got a plant. So, okay, then good. Well, let's, let's talk about something else.

Erna Buffie 31:41

Take Singapore, for example, like they've worked with developers, basically saying you have to replace 100% of the greenery you destroy. We don't care if you do it on your building. We don't care if you do it in the park down the street. We don't care if you do it, you know, on the ground around your building, but you have to replace 100% of the greenery you remove, and it's just had an enormous impact on the city. You know, unlike ours, they're fighting every year with rising temperatures that are year round. They've done it as a climate resiliency. They're cities in China, Beijing, which is planting a ring of forests around the whole city. There are others that are using trees and retaining ponds and things like that to deal with runoff on roads, to keep and these, these systems, these bio Swedes, actually clean the water. Yeah, there's lots of things cities can do with developers to get them on side. You know. I mean, what developer wants to have a bad reputation unless they're a sociopath. I mean, you know, you know, you don't want to go out there and face that kind of anger. In some instances they it's convenient, like they just do it because it's convenient efficient. They don't have to think about it. They wipe out the forest, they build their houses, they plant a couple of trees, and they walk away and make a lot of money. That's kind of the model for some of them, and it's it's just not good enough. But until cities and provinces stand up to that and say, No, it's like other cities. They're, I don't know 710, I can't remember the number. More than that, cities that have already passed private tree bylaws, which impact not just homeowners but developers. And they all learn to get along with it like they all learn to accommodate it. And so it's, you know, Winnipeg somehow thinks they're going to get this horrible, huge backlash from developers. And, you know, developers do what a city allows them to do, and that's just the way it is, and the the city needs to grow a backbone,

Stuart Murray 34:02

yeah, and you, as I say, you've written a lot of Op Ed pieces about that in the Winnipeg Free Press, and earn up what you know, when you look at, you know, the whole issue of private property, right? I mean, you know that that becomes a, I don't know, just sort of say it has the potential to become a bit of a slippery slope, like, what is private and what is deemed to be private, and somebody who owns the right to that land, and you know, how do you, and it'd be interesting to say, because you there's other cities that have been successful in doing this, to working with developers, or working with, with private owners to say, we have to have an understanding that, you know, the urban forest is, is, is almost a collective, rather than a private, way to to sort of have the conversation. And how do you, how do you broach that? How would you when you have conversations with people who. You know, adamant. I mean, you know, there's always people that are just so opposed to everything, and then that's kind of how they run their life. I mean, I always sort of say, I'm happy when people are opposed to something. Always say, Okay, can you just spend a moment tell me what you're for. Kind of interesting, see what you stand for. But so on that, on that discussion, though. Erna, how would you start the conversation with somebody without getting their backup, saying, Who are you telling me what I can or can't do on my own private land?

Erna Buffie 35:25

I think our cities and even our courts have lost their way on that one. I think the whole approach to private land is not tempered in any way by considerations of the public good. And while an individual homeowner, I would say to them, you know, if the tree's healthy, don't take it down. And why would you take it down? It's giving you all these benefits. It's giving your community all these benefits. It's giving wildlife. And you know, if it's a native tree, co evolve species, insects and birds, and, you know, other creatures are, their lives are intertwined with those trees. Why would you cut it down, unless it was a hazard, you know? And of course, if it's a hazard, if it's old, if it's falling apart, it has to come down. I sort of covered the whole issue of private property in the book as this puzzling thing where we have all kinds of restrictions on our our properties, like I can't build a deck on my house without getting a permit, without paying for a permit, without going through the process of variances, without consulting with my neighbors. You know, I can't let weeds my weed infested lawn grow, you know, two feet high, I can get slapped with a fine. Or, you know, pile junk in my yard, I can get slapped with a fine. So there are already all kinds of things that constrain what you can't and can't do on your private property for the public good, like your neighbor doesn't want you to have a deck up so high it's overlooking their backyard. That is certainly an argument I would use that you know, if you think you can do anything you want on your land, or did the structures on your land you can't? And why should it be any different? Like, why would we do that for deck building and not do it for trees? It doesn't make any sense.

Stuart Murray 37:33

Are there cities, municipalities that you have studied, that you're aware of and saying, I think you mentioned there were, I believe, seven cities that have kind of got this more

Erna Buffie 37:42

than that. Yeah, that, sorry, I don't have the numbers right to have. I was in recently in Victoria, and they've done an amazing job working with developers to protect as many trees as possible. And like us, they have a vulnerable species. Their species of oak, the Gary oak is, is at risk? Yeah, they've done great work there, and they have a private tree by law. Montreal has done extraordinary work, not not just with both public and private tree bylaws, but they've done all kinds of really interesting things in neighborhoods like Notre Dame de Grasse, where they've made streets one way so that they can have adequate bike paths, plus have these wonderful bump out curbs to calm traffic that they fill with native plants, that which is just good for everybody, including our fellow creatures. Yeah, yeah, there are cities doing doing great work. Most of them are out east.

Stuart Murray 38:45

Yeah. I mean, the point always is to say, when you're fighting these, not a fighting is the right word, but when you're trying to champion something that you're trying to move ahead, and it just makes sense, and there's proof of why we need to do it. And you know, but you're not getting us the level of success. I mean, it's always interesting to say, well, could you turn to other communities who have had success, who can show that this can be done? You know that these, no, none

Erna Buffie 39:09

of their systems are perfect each, each one of them have had to modify their private tree by laws to make them more flexible and but, yeah, there, there are good examples of cities that have done it, and they've done it, however, particularly in Montreal, with the kind of visionary leadership you need. I mean, if you still have a city council that's chained to the old roads or what's you know, car convenience Trumps nature, Trumps people, Trumps children's safety. You you've got a problem that kind of Council. It's just like, it's like, pushing one inch at a time. So I and unfortunately, a lot of people don't vote in civic elections. And ironically, most of the interesting Clint. Climate work in the world, globally is happening at the city level. So I you know, my advice to my community and my people and the city vote, find out where your candidate really stands on things like the environment, on climate change, on those issues that are going to be right in our faces, very, very, very soon. They already are. I mean, we're having insane heat waves in the city. What's the city doing about that? Not a lot busy building, you know, building wider roads on keniston and extending, you know, cheap peg was to nowhere. I mean, it's just, it's insane, it's ridiculous.

Stuart Murray 40:46

Yeah, you know, that's always part of that discussion of, what do you take for granted? What do you think you have to fight for? And, you know, I just, you know, trees. It's one of those things, Erna that I think the default position, which is not right, but the default position always says, Well, you can plant more. You know, you can plant more.

Erna Buffie 41:11

Here's what's wrong with that takes a minimum of 10 years for that sapling to provide the benefits of the mature tree you just took down. So that little tree will, you know, if you care for it properly, will eventually start delivering benefits, but nothing like that, the 120 year old elm tree on my Boulevard or the 70 year old elm tree in my backyard. That's why we need to protect the mature canopy, because we can plant as many and it's fantastic. We need to plant as many trees on as much land as possible. But if we're not protecting our mature trees, we're in trouble.

Stuart Murray 41:55

So So talk a little bit, er, now about disease, you know that comes and so you know when that gets upon us, I think you talk about the ash at the outset of our conversation.

Erna Buffie 42:05

Yeah, well, I mean, this city's been dealing with the with Dutch elm disease since 1974 and that's had a devastating impact on our canopy. Although I was I went to reading with John valent, who wrote the book on the fire weather, on the on the fires in Fort McMurray, and he just went on and on and on about how incredible it was to walk in a city that still had, that still had elm trees. But even, you know, I mean, I think what's interesting is the trajectory of advocacy that's gone along with the appearance of these diseases, that there was a very strong vocal lobby in the 90s called coalition to save the elms, which is now treaties in Winnipeg, who did amazing work educating people about how to prevent Dutch elm disease, what to do if your tree is infected, about tree inoculations, all of those things. What scientists are finding is that as climate change intensifies, we're getting more and more pests. So we have caught any psyllid in the city which impacts ash trees. And we're also kind of in a waiting pattern to see if the emerald ash borer is able to move in, like right now, the climate, the winters, seem to be cold enough that it hasn't gotten a foothold. It's not that. It's not here, it just hasn't gotten a foothold. So so we'll see. You know that's why planting new trees is is vitally important, and a diversity of trees like one of the mistakes every city in North America made was, let's plant our favorite tree, the Elm. So urban canopies from New York to Minnesota, from Montreal to Toronto, their canopies were wiped out, like basically wiped out. So already we've moved away from monocultures. We understand we have to plant a diversity of trees, which also doesn't always make people happy because they're so we're so privileged to live in a city that still has elm trees and 1000 thank yous to all of those chief urban foresters who have run that department and valiantly fought to save as many trees as possible with, like, not a lot of money. Yeah, so diseases are a real issue, but also people's attitude is a big issue, public attitudes of politicians, our attitudes, what we value, what we think is important. I mean, one of the things I talk about in the book is this city won't let you plant a tree on a corner on a residential street. What you know. Why? Because it's inconvenient for drivers. It might block their view. You know, I say, like, come on, like a sapling is basically a stick with leaves, and once it grows tall enough, surely you can edge forward past the trunk to see the oncoming traffic, like, but that's, that's how car driven our cultures are. And sadly, in Winnipeg, we still, we still, we continue to elect a lot of councilors and mayors who are, you know all about car convenience? Yeah, we are

Stuart Murray 45:35

very much a car driven society, and particularly in Winnipeg, people love their cars. Yeah, it's unfortunate.

Erna Buffie 45:41

And you know, as I say in the book, it's these distant suburbs that have shaped the fate of the early of the inner city. I mean, a city with 40% of its downtown is surface parking lots.

Stuart Murray 45:55

And would you see on that Erno if you had sort of given the blank canvas to say, okay, you know, let's look at our downtown. Would you find a mix of, I mean, you can't have an urban forest downtown. And, you know, I know you're not saying that, but where do you how do you blend what is deemed to be? I mean, you know, at some point Winnipeg is not as bad as others. But, I mean, you if you go to a city like Toronto, you might get like, 30 minutes of sunshine, you know, when it kind of gets through the buildings and down one street, you know, and then the less you're in shade. And so, you know, how do you sort of, you know, I mean, there's solutions there. And I'd love to see from your perspective, what would that look like for Winnipeg in the downtown perspective,

Erna Buffie 46:43

well, there's a number of things that can be done. I mean, for one, let's say at least 10% of those parking lots could be dug up and planted with trees. I mean, the Miyawaki forests that are densely packed urban forests are are very good at capturing carbon and cooling the air and doing all the things trees need to do. I think also, you know what? Why do we have a highway down Portage Avenue, downtown? Portage Avenue. I mean, who wants to walk along a highway? That's what. That's basically why the downtown is dead. It's a, it's a moving parking lot for cars. I mean, that's really what it is. So anybody with vision could see a way to to architect the city, so that you could narrow some of those roads, put in more trees, put in more amenities that would draw people downtown, like outdoor cafes. I mean, I know we only got four months, four or five months to do that, but it still would transform downtown. What's not going to transform downtown is another mega building, another project that you know is costing millions and millions of dollars and has a nice, wide space that they're going to, outdoor space that they're going to that's going to be mainly concrete.

Stuart Murray 48:07

Eventually, your comment on one time in St James, they decided they were going to put up sort of artificial trees, right? I mean, along Portage Avenue, right? And that was, you know, kind of a moment in time where you think, Okay, what's the thinking behind, behind that move, right? I mean, you have kind of these metal, artificial trees, as opposed to,

Erna Buffie 48:35

I don't know, yeah. I mean, it's kind of beyond me, but I think it cuts to our obsession with tidy, mown lawns, and you know that are basically ecologically dead. And, you know, putting in fake turf so it's always green. And you know, we have this compulsion to want to I don't know what it is, honest to God, I don't it's, it's, it's convenience, it's like, make it easier, do it easier. I think it's partly that, I mean, and I think the way people can counteract that, and it's now legal in Winnipeg, is to start digging up their lawns and start planting native plant gardens. I mean, it's, it's remarkable. A couple across the street from us did that last year, and it was amazing to see this gourd, this grass, being removed in this gorgeous garden of, you know, tall, tall varieties of cone flowers and big blue stem unnatural the dominant species in southern Manitoba, where Winnipeg now stands. Yeah, it people can do a lot to improve the environment of their neighborhoods. I think. There are a couple of city councilors who are very much on side with that, and planning for that and working towards that. So that's good news, not all of them, but as long as you've got a couple in there who are fighting the good fight,

Speaker 1 50:14

yeah, yeah,

Erna Buffie 50:15

you're okay, yeah,

Stuart Murray 50:16

yeah, no, for sure. Hey, listen, Erna, I just, I love the conversation. I love what you've done. I love how you've taken your career and been so passionate about trying to make change and make a difference and having success, you know? I mean, that's important. I mean, to get the budget increased and even have people in City Hall sort of saying, How did you do that? You know? Like, how did that happen? It's incredible. So I always say, said, when I when I introduced you as a writer, filmmaker and environmental advocate, you know you're a champion, and so congratulations, I and what you've done and what you're still doing, and you know your book out on a limb is is out there for people to sort of, you know they want to learn more about what your conversation is and what you're about, buy it. Get it. You know, give it to everybody for a birthday present, Christmas present, whatever it may be. But you know, as we kind of wrap up or not, I just always like to ask my guest, is there, when you read you do this podcast, is there a question you're saying? I hope he asks me, or hope he can talk about this. Is there something that I've missed in this conversation you would like

Erna Buffie 51:24

to bring up? You know, I think it's a credit to you that the answer to that is not really, if there was anything I would have included. It's more about my own personal relationship with the urban forest and my relationship to nature. And the book talks a lot about that and where that started, and how it's evolved. So no, it's been a pleasure to chat. I'm sure I'll get off and go, Oh no. What did I do that? I mean, one of the things that, oh no, I didn't do that, is I've been really inspired by indigenous activists. I mean, I think some of without doubt, the strongest advocates for for nature in the city and also for protecting wilderness, are indigenous communities, and we owe them a great debt, because that often comes at a very high cost as well. That would be one of the things I would want to ensure people were aware of and knew about and supported and appreciated.

Stuart Murray 52:29

Yeah, no, appreciate you bringing that up because I've talked to a number of of First Nations, elders, different people who you know the reference to Mother Earth is very, very part of their soul, part of who they are, part of how they see things. So I appreciate you bringing that up, but, but Erna, thank you so much for finding time for this, this conversation. I again, I just go back to to congratulating on what you do, and and and writing a book and being a filmmaker. I mean, as I said, if you're anybody that's listening to this wants to know more, a little about Erna Buffy. Go onto the free press. Go onto her website. I mean, she's prolific. She writes a lot, and that's good.

Erna Buffie 53:08

Congratulations. Thanks so much, Stuart. It's been a pleasure.

Matt Cundill 53:12

Thanks for listening to humans on rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to human rights hub.ca produced and distributed by the sound off media company.