David Kron: "We're Not Going Away" - Rebuilding Manitoba's Broken Disability Support System
- 11 minutes ago
- 30 min read
What does it mean to "age out" of a support system? For Manitobans with disabilities, it means renegotiating your entire life at 18, at 21, at 65 - arbitrary ages set by government departments that don't talk to each other.
David Kron, executive director of the Cerebral Palsy Association of Manitoba, joins Stuart Murray to talk about “Equality, Dignity, and Belonging: Building a Better System for People with Disabilities in Manitoba” - the landmark report he helped steer through a five-year pilot project born from a human rights complaint that started a decade ago. The report's conclusion is blunt: Manitoba's disability support system is failing many of the people it was designed to serve.
David, who has cerebral palsy himself, doesn't frame this as a funding fight. It's an access fight - and a human rights problem.
In this episode, David shares:
How an IQ score of 70 became the gatekeeper for support in Manitoba, and why David argues you shouldn't test for services based on IQ, period
The difference between a resource problem and an access problem - and why David refuses to have the funding conversation until people can even get on the list
Charity versus rights: what changes when disability supports stop being something you have to prove you deserve
What happens after December 16, 2026: the deadline that decides whether this report becomes generational change or a human rights hearing
Nearly 29% of Manitobans identify as having a disability. As David puts it, if we all live long enough, we're all going to join the club - and services shouldn't depend on how well you or your parents can advocate.
Learn more about the Cerebral Palsy Association of Manitoba
Episode Transcript:
Stuart Murray 00:00
This podcast was recorded on the ancestral lands on Treaty One territory, the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota, and the Dene peoples, and on the homeland of the Metis Nation.
Amanda Logan (Voiceover) 00:19
This is Humans on Rights, a podcast advocating for the education of human rights. Here's your host, Stuart Murray.
Stuart Murray 00:30
David Kron is the executive director of the Cerebral Palsy Association of Manitoba, one of the leading voices for disability rights and inclusion in our province. He recently chaired the pilot project that produced the landmark report Equality, Dignity, and Belonging: Building a Better System for People with Disabilities in Manitoba. It was a sweeping review that concludes Manitoba's disability support system is failing many of the people it was designed to serve. Throughout his career, David has been a tireless advocate for accessibility, independence, and human dignity, working to ensure that people with disabilities are not simply recipients of services but full participants in community life. Today, we're going to do a bit of a dive, talk about some of the underlying issues, ideas about support gaps, and what that means for persons with disabilities in Manitoba when they age out. So, David Kron, welcome to Humans on Rights.
David Kron 01:28
Well, thanks for having me,
Stuart Murray 01:30
David. One of the things that I wanted to just get a sense about, and we're going to talk a lot about the report and some of the gaps, but you know, this issue of aging out. I've had conversations with people and saying, I don't know what that means. Can you kind of put that into context for our listeners, please?
David Kron 01:43
Sure. So, individuals, when they're born, and if they, you know, have cerebral palsy or any disability, they all have these timestamps that government imposes on them, so it can be going into a childcare center, or then kindergarten, then every grade you have to renegotiate the whole IEP, the individual education plan, and then outside of either at the age of 18 or 21 depending on your diagnosis, you age out of the child system and into the adult system, you also age out at 65 A lot of the provincial services disappear at 65 because the provinces, and this is across the board, this isn't just Manitoba. The government of Manitoba says you now need to go to CPP and IIS, and you know the federal benefits, so it's just all these different gaps, is just you got to renegotiate your life and how it's going to be with these kind of arbitrary dates and ages,
Stuart Murray 02:56
and so just around that, David, you know, one of the things that I found on this podcast is when I talk to people, they always talk about systems changing systems. We have, you know, systemic racism, we have a lot of things around systems. When you look at sort of aging out, and you know, there, that's been in place for some time. Just take this opportunity to explain, how did they come up with some of these ages that allow people to sort of age out of the child system into the adult system,
David Kron 03:25
so I mean, I don't blame government, you know, whatever stripe they are, they're usually going along and trying to solve a problem over time,
Stuart Murray 03:33
right?
David Kron 03:34
What happens though is these problem solving for one specific issue causes a silo, so that you're going along as a child in the in Manitoba does a fairly good job with children's disability services.
Stuart Murray 03:50
Yeah,
David Kron 03:51
I mean, there's some resource issues, but that's a different conversation as to access,
Stuart Murray 03:56
right?
David Kron 03:56
And it is a very integrated approach, you've got the doctors, you've got the therapist, you've got the social worker, you've got all the different agencies that are all, you know, at the Sky Center. So, I mean, physically they're all together, they tend to work in teams, and they tend to, you know, try to solve the problems for the individual child, no matter what their diagnosis is, and in the adult system, so at 18 you either get you get tested to see if you have an intellectual disability or not. If you have an IQ over 70, you're deemed that you're not eligible for community living disability services, and if you, you get into the non stream, if you have a high IQ, but physically you need assistance, your options are very limited to home care, that in the max is 55 hours a week, now the government. Does make some exceptions, but it's never enough time. So then you've got education, you've got post-secondary education, all these different systems don't talk to each other, they don't integrate together. So that's really what we're talking about, is aging out. You either age out at 18 or 21 If you're deemed to have an intellectual disability, you have to stay in school until you're 21 like in the high school, like it's mandated, because it's again with government departments, one department doesn't want to pay for services until 21 and it's just the politics of just systems and silos and try to break those those silos down,
Stuart Murray 05:48
I mean, that's a great explanation, David, and I thank you, and I just go back to the report, which you played a big part, I think you kind of either co-authored or authored this report,
David Kron 05:57
well, I didn't actually write it,
Stuart Murray 05:59
I understand that we
David Kron 06:00
had a team that actually did the words on paper, but I was the chair of the steering committee, and of course you know we did go over every recommendation, every bit, and in the editing process, but Leanne Finet on the committee, she was a master, and she was definitely the one who put pen to paper, the government representatives on the on the committee also did a lot of the work, and Karen Sharma with the Human Rights Commission, we all kind of threw our hat in the ring. It's it's been a five year process, just with the pilot project, it took us about 18 months just to get the terms of reference hammered out in the, you know, the agreement of what, how we were going to do it and where we were going with it, so it's been a real challenge and a real adventure,
Stuart Murray 06:57
I bet,
David Kron 06:57
together,
Stuart Murray 06:58
yeah, I bet, so, so out of this, which you, you chaired the steering committee, as you say, out of this equality, dignity, and belonging, which is the name of the report, Building a Better System for People with Disabilities in Manitoba. It really makes a reference, David, to the fact that the support system is quote unquote fundamentally broken. I think that was picking up that from what was said or what was recorded in the Winnipeg Free Press. So, David, like from a human rights perspective, what is the most significant right that is currently being denied or undermined for people with disabilities?
David Kron 07:34
So, it's twofold for the way we understand it: one is services shouldn't be determined based on your diagnosis, and I talked about having an intellectual disability or not, and so that is one of the biggest barriers, because the funding is fundamentally different whether you have intellectual disability or not, and so it really needs to be based on the person's need and not a diagnosis. I have cerebral palsy myself, and I'm the executive director, like you said, of the CP Association. So, Tyson Sylvester, one of the complainants, he's a very smart guy. He desperately wants to go to university, but he has very severe CP, and he's also low vision. He's, he's blind, so he needs 24 hour care, because you can't just give him a power wheelchair and say go into the community,
Stuart Murray 08:35
right? I
David Kron 08:36
mean, he couldn't, he couldn't navigate his way through,
Stuart Murray 08:39
right?
David Kron 08:39
He graduated high school with honors, and he just wants the supports in place, so he can thrive in the community, and unfortunately, the way the system was set up, he was blocked at every point, and the only option that the government said for care was a personal care home, and you know, no 20 year old should be in a personal care home,
Stuart Murray 09:05
right,
David Kron 09:06
until the pilot project, that's where he was living, so you know that is just one example of having that, the other piece is it really is just an age discrimination piece,
Stuart Murray 09:19
right,
David Kron 09:20
right, if they had a system that went from birth to death,
Stuart Murray 09:24
right,
David Kron 09:24
and it didn't. If you're determined you have a disability, and and they do all sorts of tests to figure out what sort of needs that you need and document it well, then that's one thing. Then everybody's kind of at the table at the same time, like I said, it's not a resource, like there's always resource issues, and we get that, but that's a different conversation with government than actual access to the different systems that are out there. Yeah, and that's the real problem. If you can't even get on the list,
Stuart Murray 09:56
right,
David Kron 09:57
it's, it's really a human rights. Problem,
Stuart Murray 10:00
for sure. Yeah, and that's why I really sort of love the way you kind of frame that, because that's obviously this is a human rights podcast, and what I really am interested in is advocating people like you that advocate for human rights or educate, and think that's what we're going to kind of hopefully go through in this podcast. David, I, you know, just let me just kind of just pivot back for one quick second, and again, I'm not intentionally trying to put you on the spot, but again, I'm always interested, you know, when there's frameworks that put get put into place, you talk about ages, whether it's 18 or 21 where it may be, or 65 you know, has there been any conversation around the issue around sort of having an IQ of 70, you get tested if you have an IQ of 70, it means certain things. Is that, is that a benchmark that is, you know, from your perspective acceptable?
David Kron 10:50
Well, I don't think you should be testing for for services based on an IQ,
Stuart Murray 10:55
right?
David Kron 10:56
Um, period.
Stuart Murray 10:57
Right,
David Kron 10:57
you can test somebody to determine if they are safe in the community, and whether they need supports,
Stuart Murray 11:03
right,
David Kron 11:03
that's a different conversation. There's not much difference if you have an IQ of 75 let's say, yeah, and 69 for, you know, protection. We have the Vulnerable Persons Act, right, and the Substitute Decision Maker Act, all those things to protect individuals in the community, and it really doesn't matter, you know what that test is. And unfortunately, Amelia Hampton passed away in 2024 Her complaint, now that she was the other co-complainant of this was she was nonverbal young lady with CP and her parents and her determined, well, how do you test my daughter for an IQ when she's nonverbal?
Stuart Murray 11:54
Right,
David Kron 11:54
right, and how, like, how fair is that test? So that's the other human rights piece, is you've got psychologists and psychiatrists doing these tests that don't determine, you know, the basis of a person's ability to function in the world. Sometimes, if you're on the autism spectrum, you give a very mild autism, but you need a little bit of help to thrive, and right now you don't qualify,
Stuart Murray 12:24
right?
David Kron 12:24
Right, you can have very severe autism, let's say,
Stuart Murray 12:28
yeah,
David Kron 12:28
and get all the support you need, but you still can't thrive,
Stuart Murray 12:33
right?
David Kron 12:34
Right, so it, it really needs to come down to listening to the person, valuing what they bring to society, and that comes down to the resources and limiting those barriers that everybody has to dance through every time you turn around to ask for something. It really is frustrating and exhausting.
Stuart Murray 12:55
Yeah, yeah, I can only imagine, David, you kind of mentioned a little bit about this, but I'd like to see if we do jump into this and clarify a little bit about from your perspective that I think many people think of disability services as a matter of social policy or funding, and I guess my question to you, as the executive director, Why should Manitobans view access to disability supports as a human right rather than simply a government program,
David Kron 13:25
so, so really it comes down to is how do you value people in society. How do you, where do I always take the attitude that I'm not taking away from society? If you give me a little bit of a support, I can add to society,
Stuart Murray 13:42
right?
David Kron 13:43
So you know members that I've got members of the that have cerebral palsy that are getting their PhD right, that have masters that have MBAs, that you know they might not be able to walk very well, but their mind is fully intact and and much smarter than I am, and but they still need those supports, so we're not looking for charity here, like I'm trying to get away from that charity model that the government always has, is well, David, if you have to ask for it, get documentation that you need it, and then we'll look at it and maybe get back to you in six months and maybe you'll have to appeal it. It's just not a very human rights based system. It's basically how well can you advocate, how well can your parents advocate if you're a child, and what point can you muddle through, and what point do you need to figure out? This is what I need to survive on,
Stuart Murray 14:45
you know. We have a transcript of this when we, when we put it up onto the podcast platforms, and we will certainly put links to the study that was released last week, but you know, I guess the thing that. Always is interesting, is that what I took away from some of the things in the report. It, it calls for a shift away from diagnosis-based eligibility towards a needs-based system, which I think you made reference to.
David Kron 15:11
Yep,
Stuart Murray 15:12
how you know, how do those align with the principles of dignity, equality, and non-discrimination?
David Kron 15:18
That's the whole ballpark, right? My level of need shouldn't be based on my diagnosis, like I always make this point to folks trying to say, why is this important, why should you care, and my, you know, if those services aren't there, you're one heart attack away, you're one stroke away, you're one car wreck away from needing all these services. The wonderful thing about having a disability, it's not a bad word. And if we all live long enough, we're all going to be disabled. It might be a week before you pass away, it might be an hour before you pass away, but if we all live long enough, we're all going to have that privilege of joining our very exclusive club, and I think of it as a club, right? Like the worst thing that if I could ever fix on myself is lack of hair, right? I wish you know, 24 years old, no hair,
Stuart Murray 16:16
yeah,
David Kron 16:16
come on,
Stuart Murray 16:17
yeah,
David Kron 16:18
right. My disability doesn't limit me to what I want to do, right, and it doesn't limit me on having a full life, but sometimes I just need a little bit of help to get there, whether it's maybe home care coming, and it helped me clean my apartment once a week, right, and then I can go out and do more things in community. I can transportation is a huge issue.
Stuart Murray 16:44
Yeah,
David Kron 16:45
right. It's not bad if you live in Winnipeg,
Stuart Murray 16:47
yeah,
David Kron 16:48
and you need a wheelchair capable van, but if you live out in Winnipeg, Osis, let's say, or a small town where you grew up, you don't have those services, you don't have a handy transit or transit plus, you have all your medical services are here, based in Winnipeg.
Stuart Murray 17:06
Yeah,
David Kron 17:06
you know, all your.. and this is what we found all across the board, like the Hamptons live in West Saint Paul. Well, handy transit doesn't go there,
Stuart Murray 17:16
right?
David Kron 17:16
Right,
Stuart Murray 17:17
yeah. And
David Kron 17:17
if you call a handicap, like a handy helper or private wheelchair van, they practically charge you triple because they're going outside the perimeter,
Stuart Murray 17:26
right? Yeah, though
David Kron 17:27
you're 10 minutes outside the perimeter, right? Like, yeah, it, it just, they put these artificial barriers up where we don't need to,
Stuart Murray 17:36
yeah. And I think you know, when I, when I went through the, the report, and looked at some of the recommendations, just touched on it, David, because I was going to ask you specifically. There's two in there that you separated: one is indigenous rights and partnerships, and the other one was rural and northern equity, and you talk about transportation as being a massive challenge for people that are outside the urban center, simply because it just doesn't exist from your perspective. When you look at some of the recommendations that are there, how do you see us moving forward to sort of get some of those recommendations in place to deal with the issue of dignity and respect,
David Kron 18:21
I know this is not going to happen quickly. Okay, the human rights complaint started 10 years ago, and this is where we're at.
Stuart Murray 18:30
Yeah,
David Kron 18:30
right, it's not going to be instantaneously. We just have to slowly work at it on how we need to break down barriers, right. And because I, I learned through the pilot project how slow government moves,
Stuart Murray 18:45
right?
David Kron 18:46
It's exhausting when you have going, oh my goodness, right, but you need to put, you need to be aspirational, and you need to know, here are the issues, so that what the report does is it, it tells government, here are the issues, and here are our thoughts on how to fix it. Now it's up to you to come up with the plan,
Stuart Murray 19:08
right?
David Kron 19:09
Right, because that's what the we agree to going into mediation with the province, right from the point of view of the Amelia and Tyson and the Human Rights Commission, and it really comes down to, and it's not a resource issue, like I said, that's a different conversation, and I'll be happy to have that with government at a different date, but I need access to the to the systems first,
Stuart Murray 19:40
right
David Kron 19:40
before I can then argue that I need more, more resources, so the wait lists aren't so long, right? You know, Indigenous rights, it's with CLDs, or Community Living Disability Services, it says right in their policy that if you live on a First Nation. And you do not qualify, you cannot apply. Period.
Stuart Murray 20:04
Yeah, right. Yeah,
David Kron 20:06
and if that isn't a human rights problem, I don't know what is. Yeah, really.
Stuart Murray 20:10
Yeah,
David Kron 20:11
and I can't speak for, you know, First Nations. That's what we pointed out that barrier, and you know, we'll join with them to do that, but I cannot, because that's a nation to nation conversation,
Stuart Murray 20:26
right?
David Kron 20:26
And I am not indigenous, so I can't really speak for them, but they know it's a problem, you know. I've been in enough meetings with government, with folks from Southern Chiefs, Northern, you know, the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, and they've pointed that out to government, and we need to work together as all the different communities to push change, because if we don't ask for it, it'll never happen, for
Stuart Murray 20:56
sure. Yeah, for sure. And I think part of the challenge is, you know, David, and I'm not here to throw shade on any government or any levels of governments, not the purpose, but the reality is that you have departments within in governments that sometimes don't necessarily talk to one another. Then you look at the issue in terms of when you talk about indigenous rights and partnerships, you know, just the absurd sort of situation that you said, if you live on a reserve, you can't apply, there's no point applying, you can't apply for it, and somebody would say, well, that's more federal than provincial, and so, you know, you know, you get some of the challenges there, but I think where you're going, and I think what this report has done, and what you're doing by having the media be part of this, and I appreciate you coming on my podcast to talk about it, is trying to educate people on, you know, some of the challenges, but also where do the advocacy roles start to come, where do people start to come behind you and say, you know, you're not, you cannot be into this on your own, you know, you need support from the community, because ultimately that's what you want to be part of, is the community
David Kron 22:01
exactly, so at our press conference last Tuesday we had between 350 and 400 people come out.
Stuart Murray 22:11
Well, congratulations
David Kron 22:12
for our press conference.
Stuart Murray 22:14
Yeah,
David Kron 22:14
and we had our main room that halt 200 people, and then we had an overflow room, and they were both standing room only, and so part of the reason why we had the press conference, and we invited so many people, and people just came, is because they've been waiting for change.
Stuart Murray 22:35
Yeah,
David Kron 22:36
right, like as you said, the systems were built in the 60s, the 70s, and 80s, but it's now time to change them, so that they're more, more human rights compliant,
Stuart Murray 22:51
for sure, for sure, you know. And on that, David, I know that Canada is a signatory to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, so you've got these documents, but you know, again, these documents are great pieces of paper, but you know, where's the action that follows what is, I think, the intention of these documents?
David Kron 23:11
Yeah, and that's the whole thing, like you, like you said, those documents government signs off on it, they do a report back to the UN, whatever, my line in different committees that I'm on is we need to, we need to bring the law to the to the situation, and that's why we worked with the Human Rights Commission and the Public Interest Law Center, because they can do the legal arguments. I didn't go to law school, I wish I had, but you know, you need to put that gravitas to that action, right? And say, hey, look at if you don't do this, we are going to take you to a hearing,
Stuart Murray 23:51
right,
David Kron 23:52
and make you do
Stuart Murray 23:53
it, right,
David Kron 23:54
and do it. Let's do it. Well, this is a generational change, like I said, this is not going to happen fast. I'm doing it for the next generation, the kids that are in school now.
Stuart Murray 24:05
Yeah,
David Kron 24:05
and there's a whole crop, or I shouldn't say crop, a whole cohort. I learned that during the pandemic, that whole word, I never heard a
Stuart Murray 24:17
cohort, right? Right, but
David Kron 24:18
there's a huge cohort of kids coming through the school system right now with autism. When I was growing up, there was like one kid in school with autism,
Stuart Murray 24:30
right?
David Kron 24:30
And now I mean, good, they're being identified and tracked and that sort of thing, but government needs to know what's coming,
Stuart Murray 24:41
right?
David Kron 24:41
Right, and we're not going away. I've said that to government, you know. The 400 people that were at the press conference are just a small sliver of the individuals in Manitoba with a disability. I think it's 29% of the population in Manitoba identifies. As having a disability, wow, yeah, and we talk about silos, you know, we've got mental health services that are part of the health department, which blows my mind. We've got dental care that isn't part of the health department, that you know, not everybody has a private health care plan, right? I have a small one through work, but you know, thank goodness I make a decent living, and my wife does, and we have a Visa card,
Stuart Murray 25:30
right? Yeah,
David Kron 25:31
because I, I go to see my physiotherapist once every month, and I pair with my visa,
Stuart Murray 25:37
yeah,
David Kron 25:38
right,
Stuart Murray 25:38
yeah,
David Kron 25:38
and I'm blessed that I have that option.
Stuart Murray 25:41
Right,
David Kron 25:42
just a good example is we're talking about resources. I've got one of my members who has about the same level of cerebral palsy as I do, and what I do with my physiotherapist, she goes, 'Wow, she treats me and she takes the tone out of my legs, so it's the muscles are raring to go, and if you don't release that tone, they go into spasm,
Stuart Murray 26:07
right?
David Kron 26:07
It's just like if you're out working in the yard all day and you're not in great shape, you know, your back goes crazy.
Stuart Murray 26:14
Yeah,
David Kron 26:15
so I have to manage that well. I've got a member who is on EIA or Manitoba supports disabilities, well, they don't pay for allied healthcare like OTPT speech,
Stuart Murray 26:30
right?
David Kron 26:30
Right, when you were a kid, you got all that through the school,
Stuart Murray 26:33
yeah,
David Kron 26:33
you had a PT that would visit, maybe it was just once a month, but he, right now, when his plasticity gets really bad, he goes to the emergency room. You can't tell me that's cost-effective,
Stuart Murray 26:49
right?
David Kron 26:50
And then the diet, the emergency doctor fills them up with morphine and muscle relaxants and sends them home, because there's no option for them to go. They don't have a private clinic.
Stuart Murray 27:00
Yeah,
David Kron 27:00
community therapy services is a wonderful agency that the government funds, but they don't treat, they make recommendations on equipment, and okay, what exercises do you need to do? But as an individual, I can't do money exercises myself, I need somebody to do them on me. Yeah, right, right,
Stuart Murray 27:21
right,
David Kron 27:21
and you know, I had mrs. Von Campen was my physical therapist when I was a kid from until the age of 16. Every Wednesday, my mother would pick me up from school and would drive all the way to the rehab center for children or Shriners back in the day on Wellington Crescent.
Stuart Murray 27:39
Know it, yeah,
David Kron 27:40
he would do our 4045 minutes worth of exercises, and my mother would drive me back home. That's how it used to work.
Stuart Murray 27:49
Yeah,
David Kron 27:50
I got physiotherapy once, once a week, you know. And then mrs. Von Campen went on holidays, I went on holidays, so that's the way it worked, so services will save the government money in the long run.
Stuart Murray 28:05
Yeah,
David Kron 28:05
I can go through the whole list of whether it's school education work, just helping somebody with a disability find work, right? There's a couple agencies, but they're they're underfunded, nobody knows about them, they're Winnipeg centric, right, but that's how I got my job. I started off after university, I went and worked for Haney Transit at the city, and I worked there for nine years, but it was reaching equality employment services that helped me find my job, they helped me work on my, my resume, and they taught me how to talk well at an interview, and they actually gave me a list of places to go apply, and it was always the big five, right, the city, the province, hydro, MTS, I can't remember what Great West Life at the time were, the big five,
Stuart Murray 28:59
right,
David Kron 29:00
they said everybody in those big five, whether you got a job or not,
Stuart Murray 29:04
yeah, yeah,
David Kron 29:05
you know, so those services need to be there, those supports for families. It's death by 1000 little cuts,
Stuart Murray 29:12
yeah,
David Kron 29:13
you know, that's the other problem we have when you talk to resource, it's never big cuts, it's always like the income supports hasn't gone up. It went up $25 during Covid, and it has really gone up since 2025 years ago.
Stuart Murray 29:30
Yeah,
David Kron 29:31
you'd get $1,395 at the max per month to live off of. I don't know how anybody lives off of. kidding.
Stuart Murray 29:40
Yeah, right.
David Kron 29:41
You haven't got shelter at that point, you haven't eaten, and you've got to pay for some of your supplies. Yeah, before that, your supplies used to come, but now they're, they're rationing those, so you know, if you could add to somebody's life, make them thrive. Life, you add to society, right? And if you get the person out of the community into the community in a more supported way, you know they don't have mental health issues, they don't aren't depressed, you know, the whole part of life just gets better and better. It doesn't matter, that's for anybody, whether they have a disability or not, you're right, you support them getting to things and from things and add to things, it's a better outcome for everybody.
Stuart Murray 30:31
I'm so glad we're having this conversation, David, because clearly, you know, as you say, somebody with cerebral palsy, you're such a voice of such positive change, and you know, kind of the way you're, you're positioning the fact that you're a member of a very amazing club that will all at some point have membership into that club,
David Kron 30:52
yeah, that's the great way of putting it, yeah,
Stuart Murray 30:55
yeah, I mean, well, that's, I'm just quoting you, so congratulations, yeah, yeah, so David, this report took a long time, and you know that's kind of, you know, sometimes how government works. But having said that, now that it's out, is there anything in the report? I mean, I know you would have had a lot of input into it, as you see, you didn't put pen to paper, but you oversaw it. Is there anything that, from your perspective, that was missing in the report,
David Kron 31:21
it's a bit of a picture in time,
Stuart Murray 31:23
right.
David Kron 31:24
It's a path forward. Disability is a vast, huge thing, and it's all individual, and I'm not speaking for everybody with a disability in Manitoba.
Stuart Murray 31:35
Yeah, if
David Kron 31:35
you listen, understand it, do it on an individual need, and not trying to fit people into silos or boxes, then it'll take care if you get the principles right,
Stuart Murray 31:48
right,
David Kron 31:49
you can then develop it, and if we develop a new program procedure or whatever, let's test it, let's look at outcomes, let's monitor it like right now. A lot of the systems the government looks at process, they don't look at outcomes,
Stuart Murray 32:07
right?
David Kron 32:08
Right, they don't track one of the things I was horrified to find out working on this was the lack of information the government has. We asked for a whole bunch of data, right, on how and who they just don't collect it, and I, as a executive director of a small organization, I collect data. Right?
Stuart Murray 32:34
Sure, I
David Kron 32:34
need to go to my board and say, this is what's happening next year, here's my budget.
Stuart Murray 32:39
Yeah,
David Kron 32:39
right.
Stuart Murray 32:40
Yeah, the
David Kron 32:40
Department of Families, who tends to be given all the responsibility, they don't collect the data, and you know, privately they've all said to me, well, their information systems are so old and so labor-intensive that they don't have the data to look at, right? I mean, they make assumptions, they have broad pieces, but if nothing else, the government should say is okay. I'm going to take $100 million and go across the board and have one information system - education, health, you know, employment - all those should have the same system, right, with subsections, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're all one person. Yes,
Stuart Murray 33:27
yes, yeah, that's
David Kron 33:28
those services at some point in our lives.
Stuart Murray 33:31
Yeah, that's that's apparently that's what they say, is that we're all one person, apparently.
David Kron 33:35
That's right,
Stuart Murray 33:36
yeah. So, David, again, you know, one of the recommendations you had was evaluation outcomes and continuous improvement. Yeah, so you know, I looked at that and I thought that's such an intelligent way to try to put a recommendation in, because for all of the other pieces of the recommendations you have, which are all valuable for sure, but you know, I think so often we lose sight of putting something more money into something which is appreciated, but there's no evaluation on the outcomes to say was this well spent, poorly spent, maybe we can change how it's spent, simply because what we're focused on is outcomes as opposed to how much money goes in. So I was really taken by that recommendation, and I guess from your perspective, how do you see that, or do you - you're very, very eloquent about this. Is not an overnight situation, it's going to take some time, and I think you know that's an important initiative to really embrace, because you know things that happen overnight sometimes maybe it happened, but it ain't great. I mean, you know, it's not for the long term, right? So you're talking long term, you're talking about a legacy piece for the next generation,
David Kron 34:44
that's right.
Stuart Murray 34:45
Do you think there's a realistic chance that that will be embraced? I mean, again, that's sort of out of the box thinking, right, to actually focus on outcomes
David Kron 34:53
in order to come up with a new system that works,
Stuart Murray 34:56
right,
David Kron 34:56
even it might not be 90. You're 100% no system will ever work that way or that well, but you, we need to track what we're doing. Why are we doing, and is it doing anything right? I do understand that resources in government, they're limited, and we need to be a priority. We need to be valued, but I don't want to waste money on stuff that I know isn't going to work, so let's try it,
Stuart Murray 35:25
right,
David Kron 35:25
try it,
Stuart Murray 35:26
yeah,
David Kron 35:26
if it works, great, then we know we need to expand
Stuart Murray 35:29
it, yeah,
David Kron 35:29
right, if it doesn't, then we'll try something else, but we have to have that open mind, and part of the mandate of the pilot project was to do some creative solutions, it was difficult to get the government to do truly creative solutions, you know. Let's just embrace that fact that people's experience in life, depending on where they live, how they live, what support systems they have in their life, all are different. And so, let's track that. One of the things I love about home care, being sarcastic here, is every time there's a storm, or rainstorm, or a snowstorm, you know, they make an announcement in the press that we might not make it there today. Call in your backup services, right, and a that's assuming that you have family that can do that, and if you can't make their, why do you think a parent or an aunt or a family member or friend can make it there? I've got members that that don't have family left, right, that, or they don't have family that's willing to help them,
Stuart Murray 36:45
for sure.
David Kron 36:46
There's lots of family dynamic. I've got, you know, the home care system is kind of broken. The poor home care worker rushes in, they've got 10 minutes to do all this stuff, and you know, you part of the complaint was I had to pick between eating and my laundry, because my worker didn't have enough time to do both, and so, like, what does that mean, like, just do it better,
Stuart Murray 37:15
right?
David Kron 37:15
One of the examples I gave government back in the day, one of my members, she lived in an apartment, and through no fault of her own, a pipe button above her burst and took out all of her possessions. Well, she didn't have tenants insurance because she's trying to live off of, you know, $700 a month, and I said to the department at the time, well, why don't you just do a group, you know, insurance policy, and you're supporting people by their housing, by their, you know, by their income anyway. Go to an insurance company and say, okay, for a premium of 10 bucks a month, and then if, when something happens through no fault of their own, the government's not paying for it, because they're not paying for it anyway,
Stuart Murray 38:04
right?
David Kron 38:04
But then they're covered,
Stuart Murray 38:06
yeah, yeah,
David Kron 38:08
total sense, and that it never went anywhere, you know. So we can do some creative things, we can do it with partners in the community, but ultimately there is the responsibility, government has to do some basic services to humans or citizens of Manitoba, right? You know, and that's their role. That's why I pay taxes, and I enjoy paying taxes to support hospitals, to support roads, to support the programs that are out there. But let's do it properly, and that supports individuals. I could go down the healthcare thing if you want. One of my members spent three months at Grace Hospital, and they didn't have a lift for him, so he never had a bath or a shower for three months. Like,
Stuart Murray 39:00
yeah,
David Kron 39:00
we're just talking about physical accessibility here, and if a hospital is inaccessible, what is right? Like that should be like their first priority, because they're moving people around all over, like, and that's the dignity, like I live with dignity. One of the other wonderful examples, so the CP Association, we have a grant program, and I got this call from this mom, and they were low income, and, and that's fine, but the department would pay for a person to feed her son, but wouldn't give her the $80 bowl, so he could feed himself like it's $80 like because it wasn't in the rules, right? We don't pay for those things.
Stuart Murray 39:51
Yeah,
David Kron 39:51
so like empower the workers, the social workers, the case managers to eliminate these. Barriers like reward them to be creative and do things, and yes, you have to audit what they're doing, but I'll empower them, and they're not empowered, you know.
Stuart Murray 40:11
So, so, David, two questions here before we kind of see the sands of time kind of running through the hourglass, you talk about what this report, and I'll reference it again, sort of the equality, dignity, and belonging, building a better system for people with disabilities in Manitoba. They can go to your website, Cerebral Palsy will put a link on this podcast, so people can go and look at it, read it, and learn from it. But if you looked out and said, and I'm going to use the term 10 years from now, and you might say, 'No, I need, we need more time than 10 years, but just, just use 10 years as a bit of a benchmark. If Manitoba fully implements the report's recommendations, you know what would success look like to you from a human rights perspective? And I'll use that term, 10 years from now, you might say, 'No, I need 20. Your number, but your perspective, please.
David Kron 41:02
Yeah, so the first thing that they can do, and it's just a regulation, they don't even have to go back to the legislature, is get rid of the IQ component of Community Living Disability Services. Just take that out, take that line out, and that would free up a whole plethora. I mean, honestly, if they just did that, it would be a huge success.
Stuart Murray 41:25
Yeah,
David Kron 41:25
because anybody with a disability could apply for community living supports, you know, and you don't need to have an intellectual disability. Then we could have that resource fight. The other thing is just housing is a, is a big one, right? We're building all this affordable housing, but not much talk is being accessible. So, I know Winnipeg has the second oldest housing stock in Canada, Regina has the first oldest by just a little bit. And, okay, I understand we have to move forward and go forward, so put in under the Accessibility for Manitobans Act. They took out the built environment, made it public spaces, so there isn't even a requirement to make new houses and new apartments. Well, actually, houses were never part of the AMA, but new apartments, let's say, totally accessible, so like I'm talking about the generational change here, like I think that you know just having an open conversation, being heard, being understood is a start,
Stuart Murray 42:38
yeah,
David Kron 42:39
right, I think right now, for a certain part, we're being ignored.
Stuart Murray 42:43
Sounds like more than for a certain part, quite a bit. Yeah,
David Kron 42:45
and we're not going away. That's what I wanted to tell government and tell the people at the press conference. You know, this is the start of the next 10 years, and I'm in it for the long haul.
Stuart Murray 43:00
Yeah, for sure, yeah. And I'm glad you are. I'm sure many people are glad you are, David. I think it's fantastic. David Kron, the executive director of Cerebral Palsy Manitoba, has been my guest on Humans on Rights. David, if there's one takeaway that you would like somebody to have as they, as they start to learn more about what the report is, and all of that. What would your, what would your one takeaway be for those listeners?
David Kron 43:27
Well, I'm gonna give you two. Take
Stuart Murray 43:29
it, you go ahead, it's your show. Break
David Kron 43:32
it down to one.
Stuart Murray 43:33
Yeah,
David Kron 43:34
this whole pilot project was a suggestion of the Government of Manitoba, so we were all set to go to a hearing five years ago, and they said we want to do this pilot project, and we said okay, and so this is this whole system is this is just not a next nether report, because the government and the WHRA did agree to do best efforts to implement our recommendations, so we're I'm going to hold their feet to the fire on that one. The second thing is they have six months to do so, so December 16, 2026 I've got it circled on my calendar for them to do it, and if, and if it isn't broad enough, or detailed enough, or effective enough, we're going to go to a hearing,
Stuart Murray 44:30
right? Right. Okay. Well, I think everybody should circle december 16 on their calendar, and then we can see what the outcome
David Kron 44:38
is. Yeah,
Stuart Murray 44:39
David Cron, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate the conversation. You are, you are so passionate, and obviously you know the right champion for this, and I know there's a team of people involved, but your voice is strong, your voice is clear, and, and I can't thank you enough for being a guest on Humans on Right. It thanks for having me.
Matt Cundill 45:04
Thanks for listening to Humans on Rights. A transcript of this episode is available by clicking the link in the show notes of this episode. Humans on Rights is recorded and hosted by Stuart Murray, social media marketing by Buffy Davey, Music by Doug Edmond. For more, go to Human Rights hub.ca
Tara Sands (Voiceover) 45:24
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